Polluting ND

[Fester]

Before implementing, when the f*ck does that ever happen in ND ?
$ $ $ $ $
AI build Harwood example.

Am i supposed to answer that? I am really trying to figure out how many times i have to post the same thing over and over...

 

[Allen]

Nah, but a tacit recognition of reality would help you understand the position of many on here.

Like I said before, I too like to think it could be done with all sides being considered and happy, but the sad reality is that is not the reality in which we live.

 

[guywhofishes]

I am not sure how its done...i am sure people smarter then me could figure it out. Example could they take x amount of profits until a trust fund is built that would cleanup if or when closed down withing lets say first 5 years? Just an example/thought. I am sure there is a way. It would need to be figured oit befire implimenting imo

Do you ever stop and read what you're typing? You can't just say could would should and expect to win anyone over. You have to work within the historical reality of what it is we're talking about.

Has it ever happened (in the history of man) the way you suggest it could should would? If so, please enlighten us.

And if it has, is that the plan for this project? Has such an approach been mentioned by any parties involved?

If not, then why even entertain the possibility? Simply to play devils advocate or be "a champion of jobs"?

 

[Greenhorn]

Nah, but a tacit recognition of reality would help you understand the position of many on here.

Like I said before, I too like to think it could be done with all sides being considered and happy, but the sad reality is that is not the reality in which we live.

Honest question, what’s the environmental history with the coal mining operations in ND? Has it been catastrophic? Have they restored topsoil qualities? Have they been a net good? I haven’t been around long enough to know.

 

[Allen]

Honest question, what’s the environmental history with the coal mining operations in ND? Has it been catastrophic? Have they restored topsoil qualities? Have they been a net good? I haven’t been around long enough to know.

I would say the coal mines that are still active have been overall positive and have fairly robust environmental programs. There are however, numerous old coal mine shafts that were abandoned (and these are pretty old) which have been placed under the Abandoned Mine Lands Division of Public Service Commission. I have no knowledge on the plans for eventual decommissioning of the active mines themselves. I believe the AML stuff is funded by a federal tax on coal production. As coal production decreases in the future, that may shift the financial burden elsewhere, because I'm not sure it's building a trust fund capable of handling future mine closures.

And, of course, there are a fair number of acres now in the area north of Highway 83 causeway between Sak and Audubon that are the remnants of surface mining of coal. I don't know the history on that and why it was left in the form it is currently, but it's now a WMA. Fritz may know a bit more on this topic.

Of course, the above is a bit different in the sense that the coal mines are quite large and are actively mining. This topic is on an industrial processing facility. To compare apples to apples, I would think some of the wastelands created by the oil service companies up on the north side of Williston would be a bit more appropriate. In particular, when I was going to school up there, someone came to the professor who taught some hazardous materials/waste/environmental courses and asked us to look at a parcel of land he was thinking about buying for a DOLLAR from the city. It was an old oilfield tubing and drill pipe cleaning location. The company that owned it went out of business and the city eventually obtained it through forfeiture on property tax delinquency. The guy wanted to use it as a pasture for his horses. Bottom line, we found a number of underground storage tanks that were filled with used and new solvents, piles of scale that was cleaned off of pipe, stacks of old barrels that were a mixture of full of unknown chems, or rusted out and empty.

The environmental liability of obtaining that chunk of land (probably less than 10 acres) was staggering. Scale piles from drill pipe tend to be radiologically contaminated, and the presence of unmonitored and possibly leaking underground and above ground storage tanks and old barrels of solvents could have easily bankrupted the guy.

Not sure whatever happened to that parcel of land, but I am guessing someone eventually just bladed it flat and put it back into an industrial use. I'd still consider the place a not-worth-the-risk of owning, regardless of the asking price.

Like I've suggested before, I am not necessarily opposed to this project at face value, but there's a reason it's being proposed in ND.

 

[Slappy]

The state and fed have spent many millions on the abandoned mine lands efforts for decades. Mines were from a much different era and regulatory environment but it has absolutely fallen on the taxpayers.

https://www.psc.nd.gov/jurisdiction/aml/index.php

 

[Fester]

Do you ever stop and read what you're typing? You can't just say could would should and expect to win anyone over. You have to work within the historical reality of what it is we're talking about.

Has it ever happened (in the history of man) the way you suggest it could should would? If so, please enlighten us.

And if it has, is that the plan for this project? Has such an approach been mentioned by any parties involved?

If not, then why even entertain the possibility? Simply to play devils advocate or be "a champion of jobs"?

Trying to insult someone when trying to ptrve a point is never a good look. I will answer your questions.
Yes i do read what i type...sometimes. these are conversations...i am no expert...more then likely the same as you.

There are many many examples of where it has worked. To name a few..Heskett station..tracks are still there and a peaker plant but for the most part it was taken down in a good way. GRE by stanton..looks like there was never a plant there..other then i think its a substation. Coal industry..when they reclaim...again like they were never there. Gold mining industry..same thing. Those are just a few examples of when implemented and can be done correctly from start to finish.
I would like to know how many people are against this but were for dakota access? How many were water protectors? Alot of bad things COULD happen with pipelines.....

 

[Fester]

The state and fed have spent many millions on the abandoned mine lands efforts for decades. Mines were from a much different era and regulatory environment but it has absolutely fallen on the taxpayers.

https://www.psc.nd.gov/jurisdiction/aml/index.php

Yup..great example of it not being set up correctly in the past.

 

[Fester]

I would say the coal mines that are still active have been overall positive and have fairly robust environmental programs. There are however, numerous old coal mine shafts that were abandoned (and these are pretty old) which have been placed under the Abandoned Mine Lands Division of Public Service Commission. I have no knowledge on the plans for eventual decommissioning of the active mines themselves. I believe the AML stuff is funded by a federal tax on coal production. As coal production decreases in the future, that may shift the financial burden elsewhere, because I'm not sure it's building a trust fund capable of handling future mine closures.

And, of course, there are a fair number of acres now in the area north of Highway 83 causeway between Sak and Audubon that are the remnants of surface mining of coal. I don't know the history on that and why it was left in the form it is currently, but it's now a WMA. Fritz may know a bit more on this topic.

Of course, the above is a bit different in the sense that the coal mines are quite large and are actively mining. This topic is on an industrial processing facility. To compare apples to apples, I would think some of the wastelands created by the oil service companies up on the north side of Williston would be a bit more appropriate. In particular, when I was going to school up there, someone came to the professor who taught some hazardous materials/waste/environmental courses and asked us to look at a parcel of land he was thinking about buying for a DOLLAR from the city. It was an old oilfield tubing and drill pipe cleaning location. The company that owned it went out of business and the city eventually obtained it through forfeiture on property tax delinquency. The guy wanted to use it as a pasture for his horses. Bottom line, we found a number of underground storage tanks that were filled with used and new solvents, piles of scale that was cleaned off of pipe, stacks of old barrels that were a mixture of full of unknown chems, or rusted out and empty.

The environmental liability of obtaining that chunk of land (probably less than 10 acres) was staggering. Scale piles from drill pipe tend to be radiologically contaminated, and the presence of unmonitored and possibly leaking underground and above ground storage tanks and old barrels of solvents could have easily bankrupted the guy.

Not sure whatever happened to that parcel of land, but I am guessing someone eventually just bladed it flat and put it back into an industrial use. I'd still consider the place a not-worth-the-risk of owning, regardless of the asking price.

Like I've suggested before, I am not necessarily opposed to this project at face value, but there's a reason it's being proposed in ND.

Great write up Allen. I do believe they want it here because of less red tape. Mn is a disaster to get anything done from my understanding....now that being said...if its built here i sure hope the people running the show set it up so the people are not liable for a dime. I was reading on some tech they use for these pig plants and how it can reduxe smell down to not zero but close..with scrubbers and some other stuff they inject...i would hope if approved that would also be a requirment.... minot residents need to speak up about their concerns to have them addressed thats foresure...

 

[Fester]

Nah, but a tacit recognition of reality would help you understand the position of many on here.

Like I said before, I too like to think it could be done with all sides being considered and happy, but the sad reality is that is not the reality in which we live.

You can never ever have 100% happy..that is called understanding of reality. No matter what is built for anything it will annoy or piss somone off. From past posting...botbing would ever get done with this mentality of please all..

 

[Fritz the Cat]

And, of course, there are a fair number of acres now in the area north of Highway 83 causeway between Sak and Audubon that are the remnants of surface mining of coal. I don't know the history on that and why it was left in the form it is currently, but it's now a WMA. Fritz may know a bit more on this topic.

When that mine closed many of those Garrison coal miners took jobs at Glen Harold Mine at Stanton and when that mine closed some went to Westmoreland and Coteau properties Beulah ND.

They do a reunion once a year at Hazen Bay. Every year there are less of them. Salt of the earth.

 

[Allen]

When that mine closed many of those Garrison coal miners took jobs at Glen Harold Mine at Stanton and when that mine closed some went to Westmoreland and Coteau properties Beulah ND.

They do a reunion once a year at Hazen Bay. Every year there are less of them. Salt of the earth.

Do you perhaps know why that particular parcel was left as a WMA with the mining piles intact? An original deal with the State, some kind of experimental project for wildlife? Offhand, I can't think of anywhere else a WMA was developed like that. Maybe it's more common than I know.

 

[Maddog]

Do you ever stop and read what you're typing? You can't just say could would should and expect to win anyone over. You have to work within the historical reality of what it is we're talking about.

Has it ever happened (in the history of man) the way you suggest it could should would? If so, please enlighten us.

And if it has, is that the plan for this project? Has such an approach been mentioned by any parties involved?

If not, then why even entertain the possibility? Simply to play devils advocate or be "a champion of jobs"?

We are the champions . . . of the world.

Sing it with me.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Do you perhaps know why that particular parcel was left as a WMA with the mining piles intact? An original deal with the State, some kind of experimental project for wildlife? Offhand, I can't think of anywhere else a WMA was developed like that. Maybe it's more common than I know.

Between Hazen and Beulah there are large WMA's. They did some reclamation work creating cattail ponds etc.

Northeast of Beulah the Game and Fish has three quarters with some underground shafts. Recently someone told me it is all off limits due to cave in's. Not sure.

Northwest of Hazen was the Star Mine. Now-a-days the Mercer County Municipal Land Fill uses some of the spoil piles, Coteau Properties reclaimed a bunch, and they built Harmony Lake and gave it to the Game and Fish.

 

[7mmMag]

Between Hazen and Beulah there are large WMA's. They did some reclamation work creating cattail ponds etc.

Northeast of Beulah the Game and Fish has three quarters with some underground shafts. Recently someone told me it is all off limits due to cave in's. Not sure.

Northwest of Hazen was the Star Mine. Now-a-days the Mercer County Municipal Land Fill uses some of the spoil piles, Coteau Properties reclaimed a bunch, and they built Harmony Lake and gave it to the Game and Fish.

I'm guessing he is talking about Custer Mine WMA right off of 83.

 

[Davy Crockett]

I'm guessing he is talking about Custer Mine WMA right off of 83.

I've always admired that habitat but never walked it.
when I was young and full of salt and vinegar and chased deer on the prairie , quite a few of my deer were shot at abandon gravel pits. They offer hilly cover that a buck doesn't dislike and way easier hunting than cattails.

 

[Slappy]

There are signs at Custer Mine WMA providing some history (parking area just west of hwy 83/37 intersection). Also a short article from 2008 on Jamestown Sun site.

https://www.jamestownsun.com/news/plants-wildlife-abound-in-former-mining-area

Trees were planted by locals and scout troops around 1950. Decades later it was given to NDGF by the coal company, presumably a win-win of sorts that gave the public a WMA and allowed the coal company to avoid reclamation. There are still random pieces of steel and other remnants laying about the WMA.

 

[Allen]

I have learned a lot from this, I would have never guessed we had that many large commercial mines in ND.

Signed-
North_Of-The-Laker

 

[Davy Crockett]

Every year the state has bids for under ground coal mine drilling and grouting. It's a big issue with sink holes in some areas.