American Prairie Preserve

ndlongshot

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Please answer this one question, should your neighbor be able to sell his home next to yours in town so that Shotgun Willies can come in and build a stripper bar right beside yours and your other neighbors homes? I think Shotgun Willies is an American company.
This example comes down to zoning. Again, which is controlled by elected leaders and laws. Stripper joint in residential neighborhood wouldnt be allowed. I dont think thats a fair comparison either. Purchasing grazing land and raising bison is still utilizing the ground in a similar fashion as its been used since settlement. If they can't buy the land and graze bison, just because they want to buy up a huge area...doesnt make anything illegal or different than you would do if you had the means to do it? I know if I had the bankroll, i'd be buying myself a giant place too. Space and time (in my opinion) are the most valuable assets on earth. What does everyone want? Their own space and more time. Can't make more of it. What do all these big wigs do like zuckerberg and turner? Buy a huge property for themselves. 9 billion people or whatever its projected. I know thats what I want as well and most of the people on here would do the same. You can't begrudge someone just because they have the means to do it?

And if I hate my neighbor, but he's within the laws...I either work to change the laws, or I move my ass out of there. Same with a farm. If the pig farm in devils lake bought the property to the NW of me (which you support) ...guess what, i'm selling my operation and moving onto plan B whatever that may be. Freedom and liberty go both way. Theres winners and losers. And its capitalism. Sometimes you get the shit end of the stick.
 


Kurtr

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This example comes down to zoning. Again, which is controlled by elected leaders and laws. Stripper joint in residential neighborhood wouldnt be allowed. I dont think thats a fair comparison either. Purchasing grazing land and raising bison is still utilizing the ground in a similar fashion as its been used since settlement. If they can't buy the land and graze bison, just because they want to buy up a huge area...doesnt make anything illegal or different than you would do if you had the means to do it? I know if I had the bankroll, i'd be buying myself a giant place too. Space and time (in my opinion) are the most valuable assets on earth. What does everyone want? Their own space and more time. Can't make more of it. What do all these big wigs do like zuckerberg and turner? Buy a huge property for themselves. 9 billion people or whatever its projected. I know thats what I want as well and most of the people on here would do the same. You can't begrudge someone just because they have the means to do it?

And if I hate my neighbor, but he's within the laws...I either work to change the laws, or I move my ass out of there. Same with a farm. If the pig farm in devils lake bought the property to the NW of me (which you support) ...guess what, i'm selling my operation and moving onto plan B whatever that may be. Freedom and liberty go both way. Theres winners and losers. And its capitalism. Sometimes you get the shit end of the stick.


you can just start a non profit and get donations make up some phony statement you will have more tax free money than you know what to do with. It has been a big con for ages along with the churches who should be paying taxes now.
 

ndlongshot

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Let me add, I tend to agree with KDM and SDMF and Kurt regarding the hunting aspect. Not sure this particular case passes the smell test. But when talking about what people should and shouldnt be allowed to do my prior comments are where my values stand.

You should only have control over YOUR land. These folks shouldnt be making decisions for the Govt land. They govt needs to answer to the people in regards of management of those acres. And if prairie preserve blocks access, then MT deals with it by changing laws regarding public access. The corner hopping thing is absolutely ridiculous and would solve alot of problems. I can helicopter into land, but I can't jump across a boundary? I mean its ridiculous.

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you can just start a non profit and get donations make up some phony statement you will have more tax free money than you know what to do with. It has been a big con for ages along with the churches who should be paying taxes now.

I agree. And in that instance the people are suckers. If we dont like the tax free, we need to CHANGE THE LAW. Its awesome that we have the power to do that in this country.
 

KDM

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hunting as we knew it is slowly on its way out boys - enjoy it while it lasts

Seems to be the reality unfortunately. Not a "Chicken Little" type of guy, but it seems sportsmen won't care until it's too late to do anything about it. These groups and the wealthy few creating these private kingdoms are the MAIN reason I bought my own land. I saw this type of thing coming decades ago and with the leased ground right in my back yard becoming more common, I'm ever more glad I made the decision.
 


SDMF

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Regarding the pics I posted @ the end of pg 2. 600 elk hunters were checked coming out of that area Sunday of opening weekend on one of the 2 roads going in/out of the area. 17 had killed an elk.
 

PrairieGhost

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When I was a kid my hometown was 450 people. My dad said at one time there was 1000 people. When I was a kid the town had three elevators, three bars, two grocery stores, three restaurants, a movie theater, a butcher shop, two drug stores, three gas stations, two implement dealers, and a sort of general store. Today it has one elevator and one gas station. What happened? Was it Nature Conservancy? Not a chance they didn't exist yet. There still is no Nature Conservancy land close to it. What happened was the expanded acreage of farms. My graduating class was 26 people. A few years ago it was down to two then they joined with a larger school. These large farms still pay property taxes, but there are not enough people on the land to support any of the businesses that had been there. Now they don't want the APP to have any because they want more. I have reservations about some things about APP, but I think hunting has a better future with them than with private ag land.
 

gst

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This example comes down to zoning. Again, which is controlled by elected leaders and laws. Stripper joint in residential neighborhood wouldnt be allowed. I dont think thats a fair comparison either. Purchasing grazing land and raising bison is still utilizing the ground in a similar fashion as its been used since settlement. If they can't buy the land and graze bison, just because they want to buy up a huge area...doesnt make anything illegal or different than you would do if you had the means to do it? I know if I had the bankroll, i'd be buying myself a giant place too. Space and time (in my opinion) are the most valuable assets on earth. What does everyone want? Their own space and more time. Can't make more of it. What do all these big wigs do like zuckerberg and turner? Buy a huge property for themselves. 9 billion people or whatever its projected. I know thats what I want as well and most of the people on here would do the same. You can't begrudge someone just because they have the means to do it?

And if I hate my neighbor, but he's within the laws...I either work to change the laws, or I move my ass out of there. Same with a farm. If the pig farm in devils lake bought the property to the NW of me (which you support) ...guess what, i'm selling my operation and moving onto plan B whatever that may be. Freedom and liberty go both way. Theres winners and losers. And its capitalism. Sometimes you get the shit end of the stick.

You remind me of a fella that used to post on the old sites.......:) govt is picking who can and who can not buy lands by controlling what they use them for. It is essentially the same outcome so yes it is a "fair" comparison of govt prevent a sale of a willing seller to a willing buyer thru a different form of law...zoning.
 

SDMF

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I have reservations about some things about APP, but I think hunting has a better future with them than with private ag land.

Well, what's bolded in red is complete HORSESHIT!!! If one takes a look @ the block management map for regions 6 and 4 for MT in which the APR resides. They're buying up the relatively small parcels of private land that are surrounded by an ocean of public. But, the land they are buying/leasing is the land that has the access roads to the public lands.
 

gst

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When I was a kid my hometown was 450 people. My dad said at one time there was 1000 people. When I was a kid the town had three elevators, three bars, two grocery stores, three restaurants, a movie theater, a butcher shop, two drug stores, three gas stations, two implement dealers, and a sort of general store. Today it has one elevator and one gas station. What happened? Was it Nature Conservancy? Not a chance they didn't exist yet. There still is no Nature Conservancy land close to it. What happened was the expanded acreage of farms. My graduating class was 26 people. A few years ago it was down to two then they joined with a larger school. These large farms still pay property taxes, but there are not enough people on the land to support any of the businesses that had been there. Now they don't want the APP to have any because they want more. I have reservations about some things about APP, but I think hunting has a better future with them than with private ag land.

So what is the magic number plainsman before you claim these counties do not have the expectations of communities and all that goes with it?

No one has claimed TNC is forcing people off these lands, but they do take advantage of the situations. As has been pointed out, the law allows it but does that mean we should blindly support it without knowing the agendas behind those orgs?

Tell us plainsman which of the directors on the APP do you picture as hunters?

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Well, what's bolded in red is complete HORSESHIT!!! If one takes a look @ the block management map for regions 6 and 4 for MT in which the APR resides. They're buying up the relatively small parcels of private land that are surrounded by an ocean of public. But, the land they are buying/leasing is the land that has the access roads to the public lands.

Combine that with the 10s of thousands of miles of access roads the govt itself is closing and people plainsmans age will be blocked from accessing millions of acres of "public" lands.

Why do people wish to avoid having an honest discussion about what is happening?
 


ndlongshot

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You remind me of a fella that used to post on the old sites.......:) govt is picking who can and who can not buy lands by controlling what they use them for. It is essentially the same outcome so yes it is a "fair" comparison of govt prevent a sale of a willing seller to a willing buyer thru a different form of law...zoning.

Zoning laws can be changed. And govt reps replaced and rulings overturned. Government zoning isnt picking. The voters are local constituents are choosing whats allowable. The govt is usually made up of your own neighbors in communities like this.
 

Zogman

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Well, what's bolded in red is complete HORSESHIT!!! If one takes a look @ the block management map for regions 6 and 4 for MT in which the APR resides. They're buying up the relatively small parcels of private land that are surrounded by an ocean of public. But, the land they are buying/leasing is the land that has the access roads to the public lands.

You are 110% Correct! I would rather talk one on one with a landowner than try to get on the agenda with a board of directors in a far off board room.

;:;bangheadPG you really need to think before you post some of your thoughts.
 

gst

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Zoning laws can be changed. And govt reps replaced and rulings overturned. Government zoning isnt picking. The voters are local constituents are choosing whats allowable. The govt is usually made up of your own neighbors in communities like this.

If your neighbor wants to sell me (who wants to start a Shotgun Willies franchise on that property beside your home) and you make the powers that be aware of my intent will I be allowed to purchase that property for that sole purpose?

The fact remains that zoning laws essentially block willing sellers from willing buyers. Why is it so hard to admit that?
 

SDMF

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The 64K acres of grazing lease they ended would support +/- 1500 cattle in that country. What's the economic impact of 1500 fewer cows on 2-3 counties? I don't have a clue. 1.75-2 million in lost sales + the loss of revenue for supplemental feed and vet services/supplies. Seems like a lot to me I guess. Drives up the price of local available grazing land and slims margin @ the same time as well.
 

ndlongshot

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You can still buy it gst. Dumbass investment though since you wont be able to operate the property as you would hope. They cant block the sale. Hope willie has an exit strategy for wasting money on a property that wont work. Its not hard to admit. Its false. And i would rather deal with orivate landowners than a non profit.
 


gst

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So the end result of a willing seller not being able to close the deal to a willing buyer becasue of a law that blocks that willing buyer from doing with the property what he wants is somehow that much different?

Okie dokie pokie.

The only law that truly prevents the sale here in ND that I am aware of is the sale of lands to foreign nationals. Outside of that DU and other nonprofits CAN buy lands if they use them as the law allows.........not really any different than zoning laws.

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The 64K acres of grazing lease they ended would support +/- 1500 cattle in that country. What's the economic impact of 1500 fewer cows on 2-3 counties? I don't have a clue. 1.75-2 million in lost sales + the loss of revenue for supplemental feed and vet services/supplies. Seems like a lot to me I guess. Drives up the price of local available grazing land and slims margin @ the same time as well.

and this is the point why local residents as well as others are taking exception to this plan. It is not like there are no wild lands here, the plan is to purchase a few hundred thousand acres to connect MILLIONS of acres of already protected lands.

Yes the population has declined here just as it has in my county and township as well as most across this rural country side. According to those like plainsman that decline suddenly means we can not expect the same ideals of community and schools and business as more populated areas they live in becaue they want somewhere to come visit or pursue their recreation choice of hunting.

http://gprc.org/research/buffalo-commons/

[h=1]Buffalo Commons[/h][FONT=&quot]The Buffalo Commons is a cultural and social movement for positive, restorative social and ecological change on the Great Plains.
As both model and metaphor, the Buffalo Commons includes various, sometimes seemingly disconnected components that all add up to a new healthier life for our region centered around sustainability and regained community. This restoration economy can include everything from GPRC’s Million Acre Projects and Plains Youth InterACTION program, to a small West Texas or Kansas farmer’s re-banking of the soil on his land, to a group of Lakota or Oklahoma or Colorado mothers working together to stage gang intervention or ward off a meth invasion, to a string of communities along two hundred miles of a creek or river working to establish clean, healthy water flows again, to environmental groups making ecologically-focused land purchases. It’s problem solving through local, hands-on action.

The Buffalo Commons engages Prairie/Plains people to get invested in the healthful restoration of their communities and local environment wherever they live. Small businesses, housewives, big landholders, small landholders, inner-city children, Indian elders, cities, suburbs, towns and villages can all take pride in the unique identity of being and belonging to our Great Plains region, and working together in a shared sense of community, rather than the old way of every man (or woman) for him/herself.
History of the Buffalo Commons Movement


In 1987, Drs. Frank and Deborah Popper developed their bold new idea for a Buffalo Commons, (Popper and Popper, “The Great Plains: From Dust to Dust, PLANNING, 1987). Their continuing research showed that hundreds of counties in the American West still have less than a sparse 6 persons per square mile — the density standard Frederick Jackson Turner used to declare the American Frontier closed in 1893. Many have less than 2 persons per square mile.
The frontier never came close to disappearing, and in fact has expanded in the Plains in recent years. The 1980 Census showed 388 frontier counties west of the Mississippi. The 1990 Census shows 397 counties in frontier status, and the 2000 Census showed 402. Most of this frontier expansion is in the Great Plains. Kansas actually has more land in frontier status than it did in 1890.
Great Plains Restoration Council mounted a Plains-wide mapping project at the county level, using a series of economic and social indicators, to show exactly where the frontier is and how much further it has expanded. GPRC than did more sophisticated mapping that scrutinized these and other factors down to the Census Block level, allowing for a much more rigorous and exact understanding of ecological, biological, geographical, topographical, demographic and political conditions. Since then, we have specifically honed our focus onto a few, key target ecological areas while developing a new model of youth education.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There once were over 400 million acres of wild prairie grasslands in the central part of North America. The backbone of the Buffalo Commons movement is the work — over a period of decades — to re-establish and re-connect prairie wildland reserves and ecological corridors large enough for bison and all other native prairie wildlife to survive and roam freely, over great, connected distances, while simultaneously restoring the health and sustainability of our communities wherever possible so that both land and people may prosper for a very long time. Future generations may choose to expand these reserves and corridors, as the new culture of caring and belonging we have started today becomes an integral, ingrained part of life in the world of tomorrow, especially as extensive grasslands become needed to help absorb carbon from the atmosphere. (Highly biodiverse native prairies are excellent carbon sequesters.)[/FONT]
 

dean nelson

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If your neighbor wants to sell me (who wants to start a Shotgun Willies franchise on that property beside your home) and you make the powers that be aware of my intent will I be allowed to purchase that property for that sole purpose?

The fact remains that zoning laws essentially block willing sellers from willing buyers. Why is it so hard to admit that?

So groups like DU should be able to buy whatever they want then I take it.#$%^&>

So if you have two counties that are the same size but one only has 1/3 as many people and 1/3 as many roads that County still needs the same amount of taxes to maintain its infrastructure?
 
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ndlongshot

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So the end result of a willing seller not being able to close the deal to a willing buyer becasue of a law that blocks that willing buyer from doing with the property what he wants is somehow that much different?

Okie dokie pokie.
Stop diverting!

No one is blocking the deal. They can close the deal. The new owner just can't open a stripper house. UNLESS he changes the zoning laws. Stop acting like there isnt another solution. Thats not a "blocked" sale. Its ill-advised from a potential business man to purchase (LEGALLY) knowing that he can't run a certain type of business UNLESS he switches zoning. Again, something that comes back to elections, reps, and voters. You should know a thing or two about those GST. Your the biggest online lobbiest in the state of ND.
 

PrairieGhost

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PG you really need to think before you post some of your thoughts.
and you need to stop kissing ass.
Well, what's bolded in red is complete HORSESHIT!!!
SDMF organizations like APP can not charge to hunt or they are no longer non profit. I doubt they will change their policy of open to hunting real fast. I fear they may some day. However, if your not local or whip out your wallet (now, but more so in the future) you not getting on private. They advertise free hog hunting in Texas, but then when you get there it isn't as it sounds. You don't have to pay for a hog that you shoot on private ground, but there is a $200 a day per gun trespass fee, and that was the cheapest I seen. That day is not far off for the rest of the nation. Once they taste a little money it's all over. Try getting on around Devils Lake for goose hunting. I can because relatives own thousands of acres very close to the lake, but the poor average joe hasn't got a chance. I suppose there are a rare few, but they are rare.

They will tell you charging to hunt is capitalism, but out of their other face they will say they should not have to compete with conservation organizations. There are rules for landowners, then there are rules for everyone else.
 

Kurtr

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and you need to stop kissing ass.
SDMF organizations like APP can not charge to hunt or they are no longer non profit. I doubt they will change their policy of open to hunting real fast. I fear they may some day. However, if your not local or whip out your wallet (now, but more so in the future) you not getting on private. They advertise free hog hunting in Texas, but then when you get there it isn't as it sounds. You don't have to pay for a hog that you shoot on private ground, but there is a $200 a day per gun trespass fee, and that was the cheapest I seen. That day is not far off for the rest of the nation. Once they taste a little money it's all over. Try getting on around Devils Lake for goose hunting. I can because relatives own thousands of acres very close to the lake, but the poor average joe hasn't got a chance. I suppose there are a rare few, but they are rare.

They will tell you charging to hunt is capitalism, but out of their other face they will say they should not have to compete with conservation organizations. There are rules for landowners, then there are rules for everyone else.


that has to be about the i dont know what to call it kinda thing i have ever seen wrote on here.......
 


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