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    Thread: A shot too far

    1. Back To Top    #1
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      A shot too far

      A fellow in Wyoming, Rob Shaul, came upon his favorite hunting spot and there was 10 non-residents from Michigan already there.

      Rob started a non-profit. I don't know if he figured they were shooting beyond their abilities or what...

      Regulating Maximum Shot Distances To Address Increasing Hunting Technology

      Mountain Pursuit advocates and supports regulations which set maximum archery shot distances (bow and crossbow) at 50 yards, and maximum rifle/firearm shot distances at 400 yards. Why 50 Yards or Less for Archery?By definition, archery hunters chose to limit themselves to a short range harvest. For most archers using a bow (long, recurve, compound) a shot 50 yards or closer is required to place a vital shot with an arrow. Shorter shots means less wounding loss.Second, a 50-yard maximum shot distance automatically accommodates for increasing technology and leads to "cleaner" kills, not "easier" kills. Compound bows and crossbows which are lethal at 50+ yards will be especially lethal at 50 yards or less. Increased lethality = cleaner kill. From a regulatory perspective, rule-making authorities will no longer have to continually adjust regulations to accommodate new technology.Third, a 50-yard maximum shot distance honors and cements the agreement between archery hunters and rifle/firearm hunters, who tolerate special archery seasons in return for the more difficult challenge of getting closer to the game and subsequent decreased harvest numbers. Why 400 Yards for Rifle/Firearms?First, shots beyond 400 yards violate the hunter-game balance of "Fair Chase." Specifically, the game has a significantly decreased chance of detecting the hunter, and thus eluding him or her, at distances greater than 400 yards. Extreme range hunting tips the Fair Chase balance between hunter and game too far in favor of the hunter, and is unethical. Second, limiting rifle/firearm maximum hunting shots to 400 yards protects hunting and hunters from general public criticism. Today the general, non-hunting public still supports hunting, but this may change if the general public feels the game "doesn't have a chance" because it being taken from ranges 400+ yards out. Third, a precise shot of 400+ yards requires specialized equipment - long range rifle, high power scope, ballistic calculator, handheld weather meter, etc.Fourth, a 400-yard maximum shot distance automatically accommodates for increasing technology and leads to "cleaner" kills, not "easier" kills. Long range firearms lethal at 400+ yards will be especially lethal at 400 yards or less. Again, from a regulatory perspective, rule-making authorities will no longer have to continually adjust regulations to accommodate new technology.Mountain Pursuit is not alone here. The Boone & Crocket Club questions extreme range hunting in their Hunt Right: Hunt Fair Chase initiative HERE.Only one state, Idaho, has attempted to restrict extreme range hunting via regulation. Specifically, and Idaho regulation enacted in 1993 prohibits the weight for the weapon, scope and sling to be in excess of 16 pounds. At the time, extreme range rifles were exceedingly heavy, and this regulation was an attempt to prohibit their use. However, current firearm and optics technology allows for extreme range weapons weighing far below this 16 pound limit.

      https://www.mtnpursuit.org/mountain_...ing_technology

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      good luck regulating/enforcing that

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      If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles.
      ~Doug Larson

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      Quote Originally Posted by guywhofishes View Post
      good luck regulating/enforcing that
      First thought as well.

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      Why do people think the govt should pass a law on every little thing. Where does that mindset come from?

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    5. Back To Top    #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz the Cat View Post
      A fellow in Wyoming, Rob Shaul, came upon his favorite hunting spot and there was 10 non-residents from Michigan already there.

      Rob started a non-profit. I don't know if he figured they were shooting beyond their abilities or what...

      Regulating Maximum Shot Distances To Address Increasing Hunting Technology

      Mountain Pursuit advocates and supports regulations which set maximum archery shot distances (bow and crossbow) at 50 yards, and maximum rifle/firearm shot distances at 400 yards. Why 50 Yards or Less for Archery?By definition, archery hunters chose to limit themselves to a short range harvest. For most archers using a bow (long, recurve, compound) a shot 50 yards or closer is required to place a vital shot with an arrow. Shorter shots means less wounding loss.Second, a 50-yard maximum shot distance automatically accommodates for increasing technology and leads to "cleaner" kills, not "easier" kills. Compound bows and crossbows which are lethal at 50+ yards will be especially lethal at 50 yards or less. Increased lethality = cleaner kill. From a regulatory perspective, rule-making authorities will no longer have to continually adjust regulations to accommodate new technology.Third, a 50-yard maximum shot distance honors and cements the agreement between archery hunters and rifle/firearm hunters, who tolerate special archery seasons in return for the more difficult challenge of getting closer to the game and subsequent decreased harvest numbers. Why 400 Yards for Rifle/Firearms?First, shots beyond 400 yards violate the hunter-game balance of "Fair Chase." Specifically, the game has a significantly decreased chance of detecting the hunter, and thus eluding him or her, at distances greater than 400 yards. Extreme range hunting tips the Fair Chase balance between hunter and game too far in favor of the hunter, and is unethical. Second, limiting rifle/firearm maximum hunting shots to 400 yards protects hunting and hunters from general public criticism. Today the general, non-hunting public still supports hunting, but this may change if the general public feels the game "doesn't have a chance" because it being taken from ranges 400+ yards out. Third, a precise shot of 400+ yards requires specialized equipment - long range rifle, high power scope, ballistic calculator, handheld weather meter, etc.Fourth, a 400-yard maximum shot distance automatically accommodates for increasing technology and leads to "cleaner" kills, not "easier" kills. Long range firearms lethal at 400+ yards will be especially lethal at 400 yards or less. Again, from a regulatory perspective, rule-making authorities will no longer have to continually adjust regulations to accommodate new technology.Mountain Pursuit is not alone here. The Boone & Crocket Club questions extreme range hunting in their Hunt Right: Hunt Fair Chase initiative HERE.Only one state, Idaho, has attempted to restrict extreme range hunting via regulation. Specifically, and Idaho regulation enacted in 1993 prohibits the weight for the weapon, scope and sling to be in excess of 16 pounds. At the time, extreme range rifles were exceedingly heavy, and this regulation was an attempt to prohibit their use. However, current firearm and optics technology allows for extreme range weapons weighing far below this 16 pound limit.

      https://www.mtnpursuit.org/mountain_...ing_technology
      You are a year late to the party this fool was already taken to task bringing up his bullshit on Rokslide. he owns mountain tactical and has not hunted as long as he likes to lead on. In the end this is nothing about nothing and he got put in his raging piece of shit place. this is from august of 2018

      0 Not allowed!
      All the Gods,All the heavens,All the Hells are with in you.

    6. Back To Top    #6
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      I looked through their website a bit. Rob Shaul should be a shoe-in for president of any HOA.

      6 Not allowed!
      This has been like listening to Nancy Pelosi argue with Ozzy Osborne.

    7. Back To Top    #7
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      I guess we should probably narrow the scope of fishing presentations as well. It’s not fair to the fish. Ha ha ha

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      The green hornet's caught more fish than you've lied about!

      That’s what it’s all about, Guns n Butter baby!

    8. Back To Top    #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kentucky Windage View Post
      I guess we should probably narrow the scope of fishing presentations as well. It’s not fair to the fish. Ha ha ha
      They already outlawed snagging of game fish in ND most likely due to the unfair advantage.

      0 Not allowed!
      It is not that I value my property over another's life it is that whoever tries to take it values my property over their own life.

    9. Back To Top    #9
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      Kurtr,

      you are correct. A Wilma whiner and may have played a small role in that Wyoming non-resident tags going up in price and down in NR tags given out.

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    10. Back To Top    #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz the Cat View Post
      Kurtr,

      you are correct. A Wilma whiner and may have played a small role in that Wyoming non-resident tags going up in price and down in NR tags given out.
      That bill is dead the 90-10 split for limited entery may happen but the amount of tags will stay the same which is like 7250 full price tags. What will kill the amount is if the 30% was allocated to out fitters then the amount of tags available to draw would be down to 5075 in the drawing. With the other being available for outfitters clients to draw. The guide association has already came out against this bill along with pretty much every other organization.

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      All the Gods,All the heavens,All the Hells are with in you.

    11. Back To Top    #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Obi-Wan View Post
      They already outlawed snagging of game fish in ND most likely due to the unfair advantage.
      Except for state record Walters. That’s still legal.

      0 Not allowed!
      The green hornet's caught more fish than you've lied about!

      That’s what it’s all about, Guns n Butter baby!

    12. Back To Top    #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by SDMF View Post
      I looked through their website a bit. Rob Shaul should be a shoe-in for president of any HOA.
      very good analogy

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      If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles.
      ~Doug Larson

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      Rob Shaul is not alone thinking long range shooting should be regulated. Is long range... hunting...or...shooting? From Boone and Crocket:

      http://www.huntfairchase.com/a-shot-too-far/

      “If there is a sacred moment in the ethical pursuit of game, it is the moment you release the arrow or touch off the fatal shot.”―Jim PosewitzLong-range shooting, extreme long-range shooting, sniper hunting—call it what you will, but there is no denying this trend is pushing the limits of ethical hunting and fair chase, leaving us with more questions than answers. The first is, why should we care?The simple and obvious answer is, as sportsmen, we have a responsibility to hunt ethically and that includes quick, assured, humane kills. Extreme shot distance bends this probability curve exponentially.Our firearms have long had the capability of sending bullets downrange to distances over a mile. Technology has improved to more reliably know where these bullets will hit. Neither of these things are in question. What is in question is where does hunting end and shooting begin?Any study of this question leads to the fact that the answer cannot be measured in yards. What’s too far for one person is within the comfort range of someone else. This is to say each of us have our own comfort zone, or our maximum effective range. But there are other variables: prevailing conditions such as wind, elevation, barometer, shot angle and the body size of the game we’re hunting. Then there is the degree of skill, experience and practice each of us has. There is also what each of us seeks from our hunting experiences. Some like the chase, the chess match; engaging the animal and getting in close, even if well within their maximum effective range.Increasingly, more people—regardless of their skills—who choose to test their marksmanship on game animals are posing unforeseen issues: shooting over the heads of unseen hunters who are downrange, for example, and the undetected wounding of distant animals. Back to our question: Where does hunting end and shooting begin when everyone involved believes they are hunting in the first place?If we know this can’t be answered in yards, then the answer lies in intent. If your intent is to hunt the animal, get as close as possible for a sure shot within your maximum-effective range, with a concern for a high-probability, safe shot, you’re hunting. If your intent is to see how far you can hit a live target and/or best your last performance, you’re shooting. There is nothing illegal about extreme long-range shooting. There’s nothing in the hunting regulations about maximum allowable distance, but this is a website on hunting ethics.

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      Old news again

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      All the Gods,All the heavens,All the Hells are with in you.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz the Cat View Post
      Rob Shaul is not alone thinking long range shooting should be regulated. Is long range... hunting...or...shooting? From Boone and Crocket:

      http://www.huntfairchase.com/a-shot-too-far/

      “If there is a sacred moment in the ethical pursuit of game, it is the moment you release the arrow or touch off the fatal shot.”―Jim PosewitzLong-range shooting, extreme long-range shooting, sniper hunting—call it what you will, but there is no denying this trend is pushing the limits of ethical hunting and fair chase, leaving us with more questions than answers. The first is, why should we care?The simple and obvious answer is, as sportsmen, we have a responsibility to hunt ethically and that includes quick, assured, humane kills. Extreme shot distance bends this probability curve exponentially.Our firearms have long had the capability of sending bullets downrange to distances over a mile. Technology has improved to more reliably know where these bullets will hit. Neither of these things are in question. What is in question is where does hunting end and shooting begin?Any study of this question leads to the fact that the answer cannot be measured in yards. What’s too far for one person is within the comfort range of someone else. This is to say each of us have our own comfort zone, or our maximum effective range. But there are other variables: prevailing conditions such as wind, elevation, barometer, shot angle and the body size of the game we’re hunting. Then there is the degree of skill, experience and practice each of us has. There is also what each of us seeks from our hunting experiences. Some like the chase, the chess match; engaging the animal and getting in close, even if well within their maximum effective range.Increasingly, more people—regardless of their skills—who choose to test their marksmanship on game animals are posing unforeseen issues: shooting over the heads of unseen hunters who are downrange, for example, and the undetected wounding of distant animals. Back to our question: Where does hunting end and shooting begin when everyone involved believes they are hunting in the first place?If we know this can’t be answered in yards, then the answer lies in intent. If your intent is to hunt the animal, get as close as possible for a sure shot within your maximum-effective range, with a concern for a high-probability, safe shot, you’re hunting. If your intent is to see how far you can hit a live target and/or best your last performance, you’re shooting. There is nothing illegal about extreme long-range shooting. There’s nothing in the hunting regulations about maximum allowable distance, but this is a website on hunting ethics.
      What’s your position on this topic? For or against?

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      The green hornet's caught more fish than you've lied about!

      That’s what it’s all about, Guns n Butter baby!

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      Quote Originally Posted by Kentucky Windage View Post
      What’s your position on this topic? For or against?
      Not one step backwards. ATV's, platform rifles, trail cams. I like it all.

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      Why is it that at least once a year there are some individuals, organizations or agencies that want to reduce the opportunity of person to either harvest or engage in the act of hunting? They want to take away land access, # of tags available, reduce limits, price out the average joe with increasing license fees. The core argument they use for these needed changes is to save the hunting heritage or relationships with landowners (95% of them by the way do absolutely nothing for wildlife). In fact what they propose diminishes opportunity and is killing hunting. My daughter recently had hunter safety course. The volunteers said that only 8% of the population in ND hunts. I was supper surprised at how low that # was. I feel in general the worst thing that happened to hunting was all of these stupid hunting shows. People watch that shit and get jealous and pissed. Which generates these crazy ideas.

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      This is sad really. It has NOTHING to do with sportsmanship, ethics, or the well being of the critters. This whole issue stems completely from jealousy and selfishness. When it comes right down to it, the feeling proponents of this have is that they are not skilled enough or equipped well enough to shoot "THEIR TROPHY CRITTER" at 1000 yds (rifle) or 100 yds (bow) so nobody else should be able to shoot "THEIR TROPHY CRITTER" at 1000 yds or 100 yds either and thus take "THEIR TROPHY CRITTER" away from them. Pure Jealousy for those who can and Pure Selfishness that others might take what they want.

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      I’ll play devils advocate here, with the immediate disclaimer that it boils down to your own personal ethics. If you know you can make a 500+ yard shot, go right ahead. I certainly can’t but I’m not about to draft legislation that says you can’t.

      With that said, there is only so much wildlife. We have gotten exceedingly more efficient at harvesting it. The amount of info available, the new gadgetry that comes out everyday, etc. It has become all the easier to outpace our wildlife recruitment. Yes, we need to recruit hunters and grow the sport. But we also need to think long term when it comes to wildlife management. It’s not as simple as we need to make every effort to make hunting as easy as possible for everyone. I wish it was but that’s not reality. Hunting SHOULD BE TOUGH. You should have to feel some frustration. You should have some times when you don’t successfully fill a tag. I don’t like that this societal idea of “everything should be easy” is bleeding into hunting.

      So no, I don’t say we should somehow regulate that you can only take a shot at a distance that every single person can make. I’m not calling for any other restrictions either baiting, trail cameras etc. But maybe more of us should challenge ourselves to not take an easy way out.

      I now leave you time to flame away.

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      I don't have to out run the bear. I just have to out run you.

      The 6.5 Creedmoor won’t make you a better hunter.

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      are we gonna limit livescope on the big lake/river in the spirng and fall too to stop the slaughter of big female walleyes?????
      why is it okay for fisherman to embrace technology but when hunters do it its unethical, or cheating or to easy?????

      when's this shit gonna end jealousy is stinky can we seriously stop worrying what others do and enjoy why we all started hunting and fishing?? to be with family, have some dam fun.

      1 Not allowed!

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