Bring out your dead!

Bfishn

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It's called PARALLEL RESEARCH!! Using a methodology that has proven itself to be successful in a closely related situation. It's how cowpox infections led to a small pox treatment as well as an untold number of other solutions to significant problems. Culicoides was been successfully controlled in several human situations, several livestock situations, and in multiple locations and environments. To discard this knowledge and not use it just because it hasn't been used to protect wild deer is beyond foolish and borders on complete stupidity. We have a real problem here in ND with EHD and all you can come up with based on a fair amount of looking into the issue and your own personal intuition is to do nothing?? WOW!!
I guess youll be lending your expertise and unparalleled knowledge on this subject to the game and fish of all states dealing with this? I wish you were as right about this as you think you are and it was an easy cost effective solution. Nothing I’ve read points to that though, But hey your the expert!
 


Rut2much

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Wish u would took over for steinwand kdm..that's all I'm guna say about that..;:;bowdown
 

Timbuk-2

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Research has indicated that cattle are the reservoir for the disease, maybe the farmers should just vaccinate their cattle.
 

Kurtr

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Garlic salt licks. Dead deer all over here last year except in the cattle ponds where they were.
 

Traxion

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I found multiple good deer dead from assumed EHD in several areas of SD last year while bird hunting. If a spray could work, how would you reasonably cover all these areas? It ranged from a stock dam the size of a small swimming pool, a well defined creek, and a CRP field with the closest water a slough that was essentially cattails. I wouldn't argue there are means to control them (haven't researched), but I would argue that it would not be possible to cost effectively pursue it unfortunately. In SD a lot of our cases are around known rivers and drainages, but that alone wouldn't solve the problem. I see it as another CWD. Make the people aware of it, do the best to educate them, and do what is possible to control the spread. I love a healthy deer herd, but thinking we can fight mother nature with EHD is akin to thinking I could put out an oil well fire with a super soaker. That fire is going to burn regardless of what we do.
 
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Fritz the Cat

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Research has indicated that cattle are the reservoir for the disease, maybe the farmers should just vaccinate their cattle.

There may be over twenty-four different strains of Blue Tongue and ten different strains of EHD. It's kind of like people taking flu shots and the medical profession guessing at which strain is going to attack.
 

KDM

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I guess youll be lending your expertise and unparalleled knowledge on this subject to the game and fish of all states dealing with this? I wish you were as right about this as you think you are and it was an easy cost effective solution. Nothing I’ve read points to that though, But hey your the expert!

Pound Sand Bfishn!! I spent 13 years making mosquito, black fly, and biting midge surveillance counts before and after aerial insecticide applications of several different insecticides used for mosquito control and the counts of all populations plummeted. Many of these applications were done in Minot and Williston ND. They may not have been permanent drops in populations, but it was over 95% reductions in the counts for at least 7 days. I've used mosquito dunks in Afghanistan treating isolated ponds or wells which dropped adult counts of both mosquitos and sand flies to less than 7% of pre treatment levels. I've seen significant drops in adult emergence counts of mosquitos and other biting flies when using the insect growth regulators METHOPRENE and DIMILIN in Afghanistan and several South American countries in both urban and rural settings. I've used Methoprene on my own place to manage mosquito numbers and have noticed a marked reduction in biting midges and other biting flies (horse, deer, and stable flies) that use similar breeding habitats. Just because nobody has tried to use these products in the pasture lands of ND to control these midges doesn't mean that it won't be effective enough to mitigate an EHD outbreak. It may not be necessary to eliminate all the midges. It may only be necessary to knock their populations down to a level where EHD transmission is interrupted or significantly reduced. I've seen these products work and they work well in certain situations. EHD seems to cause deer mortality during dry conditions. Why is it so hard to take a look at using some of these products in the isolated water holes in ND that force deer into contact with the midge when dry conditions occur? I'm NOT an expert, but I have significantly more knowledge and experience with controlling insects than most. However, I'm retired and have no interest in doing someone else's job for them. Maybe you could lend them your intuition??
 

KDM

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Hate to to be the downer here but does it kill bees?

The formulations I used of Methoprene and Dimilin were only for aquatic applications. We took adult mosquito and sand fly counts before treatment, treated the water where the larval forms of biting flies develop, then took adult counts for several days after treatment and found significant reductions in the number of adults captured at the treated sites. These products interfere with chitin development so the larvae can never pupate into adults. So, unless the bees are swimming and are in their larval forms, these products won't affect them. I've seen these products work in isolated water sources before. As EHD seems to be most severe in dry conditions, these products might be of use in the less numerous water sources that result from dry conditions. If it does show to have some efficacy in knocking down midge numbers, it might give deer guys a tool to use to try to keep those deer they work so hard to grow alive. Deer hunters spend thousands of dollars on bait, food plots, stands, cameras, and all the other items that go along with it. If they had a way to go to the water sources in their area during dry conditions and drop a couple dunks in them to try to keep EHD from killing their deer, it might just help keep these die offs from being so significant. It's just a thought.
 

ndlongshot

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How much time ya got KDM?

1.) Application of something like that even on a small drainage like apple creep seems hard to achieve at scale. With how many landowners and water resources exist on it. Aerial application? Maybe. Can gnf afford that? Up for conversation. And right now they are saying the outbreak is the Missouri corridor from the dam to south of bismarck. Is EHD endemic? Is it something that has always played a role? If its always been around, its likely a natural barrier between mule deer and whitetail populations. I agree individual landowners can treat their stock water, but deer travel so much I"m not sure it matters. All you can do is try? Determining successful results may be difficult.

2. What are those black striped wing flys that come around every few years? I call them zombie flies. Damn things can get into everywhere. Campers, house windows, cars. I figured after winter they would die, but nope come spring the bast%$#@ come back to life! They never fly to far, sit and twitch their wings. Any control for them?!
 


guywhofishes

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2. What are those black striped wing flys that come around every few years? I call them zombie flies. Damn things can get into everywhere. Campers, house windows, cars. I figured after winter they would die, but nope come spring the bast%$#@ come back to life! They never fly to far, sit and twitch their wings. Any control for them?!

I think it's these and yes, those bastards are at plague levels out west
https://webdoc.agsci.colostate.edu/...o/Ceroxys-latiusculus-Picture-winged-fly1.pdf

luckily they don't bite
 

KDM

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How much time ya got KDM?

1.) Application of something like that even on a small drainage like apple creep seems hard to achieve at scale. With how many landowners and water resources exist on it. Aerial application? Maybe. Can gnf afford that? Up for conversation. And right now they are saying the outbreak is the Missouri corridor from the dam to south of bismarck. Is EHD endemic? Is it something that has always played a role? If its always been around, its likely a natural barrier between mule deer and whitetail populations. I agree individual landowners can treat their stock water, but deer travel so much I"m not sure it matters. All you can do is try? Determining successful results may be difficult.

2. What are those black striped wing flys that come around every few years? I call them zombie flies. Damn things can get into everywhere. Campers, house windows, cars. I figured after winter they would die, but nope come spring the bast%$#@ come back to life! They never fly to far, sit and twitch their wings. Any control for them?!


Enough time to care about other peoples deer herd. I'm not the one taking pics of the dead deer. However, I'm about done with giving a shit. The game and fish along with a bunch of other folks seem to feel the same way. Maybe that question should be posed to the game and fish. You're paying them to protect the deer herd aren't you??

1. I've treated slow moving water such as the overflows from sewage lagoons with methoprene and had considerable reductions in adult counts from surrounding surveillance sites. The populations reductions were not as significant as from a contained water source, but they were enough to reduce biting complaints for the next couple months. The product moves with the water as we used a time release formulation that kept the product moving downstream to settle in the slower areas where the larval forms of the flies tend to congregate. So using it in a small stream or creek could also work. I've seen it.

2. Those flies are called "Picture Wing Flies" from the family Ulidiidae formerly Otididae. They overwinter as adults so cold weather is not a problem. They show up in the fall and then again in the spring. They are very easy to kill off, but you have to balance that with using pesticides inside the home with how much of a problem they really are. They don't bite, they don't eat anything, so if it's just a nuisance thing, you might want to think it over.
 

remm

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KDM, are any of the treatments you used for the midge available to the public? I guess if I owned some land with a few ponds/sloughs on it in the areas of EHD, I'd probably consider treating some of the areas myself within reason. I'd be willing to bet there are some landowners/sportsmen out there that would be willing to do the same to save their local deer population. Gotta get sickening cleaning up those stinky carcasses, I know we found quite a few out pheasant hunting last year south of dickinson, was hoping it would be better this year but doesn't sound like it. I wonder if many people know about it as a possible option to at least lessen the blow...
 

KDM

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Yep. Google methoprene and you will find lots of products. I'm not saying to just throw this stuff all over the place, but there is enough evidence to suggest that using some of these products might just do some good when trying to reduce the midge populations in an attempt to address and EHD outbreak. There needs to be some research done right here to find out. You folks can decide who you should be asking to actually do the research or to fund the research. I'm out. I have a soybean harvest to tend too. Good Luck Folks!!!
 

Fritz the Cat

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Another thing to consider is when a deer is bitten it can take three to five days to die of EHD. Blue Tongue however can take twenty days for the animal to die. That means the midge load hatch happened almost three weeks before anyone starts finding dead deer.

People applying methoprene may need to think pre-emptive strike.
 


shorthairman

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I'm from Nebraska, and we have EHD die-offs also so...I would like to know why "we"(NE or ND or whoever GFP) need to wait for someone else to do the research...why can't "we" be the ones to start it? Sounds like KDM already has a pretty good start....

Also I agree that individual hunters/landowners can and probably should do some research and throw some dunks into watering holes frequented by their deer herds to help the situation. If enough hunters and landowners did this and it worked, I would say in general it should help the deer herd across the said state.
 

7mmMag

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I saw a dead buck along interstate by Jamestown this morning. Obviously EHD or CWD (maybe both) moved into the area and took that one out.
 

NDSportsman

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The formulations I used of Methoprene and Dimilin were only for aquatic applications. We took adult mosquito and sand fly counts before treatment, treated the water where the larval forms of biting flies develop, then took adult counts for several days after treatment and found significant reductions in the number of adults captured at the treated sites. These products interfere with chitin development so the larvae can never pupate into adults. So, unless the bees are swimming and are in their larval forms, these products won't affect them. I've seen these products work in isolated water sources before. As EHD seems to be most severe in dry conditions, these products might be of use in the less numerous water sources that result from dry conditions. If it does show to have some efficacy in knocking down midge numbers, it might give deer guys a tool to use to try to keep those deer they work so hard to grow alive. Deer hunters spend thousands of dollars on bait, food plots, stands, cameras, and all the other items that go along with it. If they had a way to go to the water sources in their area during dry conditions and drop a couple dunks in them to try to keep EHD from killing their deer, it might just help keep these die offs from being so significant. It's just a thought.
I'd certainly hope the GNF has at least studied this idea and determined whether it's feasible or not at the state level or even if it's something they could urge landowners and hunters to look at implementing on their own. But I have my doubts because they seem to spend most of their time trying to limit hunters and hunting methods as opposed to improving wildlife populations. The GNF vet only seems to be concerned with morality issues instead of actual solutions to the real issues effecting our wildlife.
 

jdinny

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I saw a dead buck along interstate by Jamestown this morning. Obviously EHD or CWD (maybe both) moved into the area and took that one out.

or an auto collison

nah those dont happen anymore. any dead deer along the road must be either CWD or EHD

just like covid wiped out the common flu
 

Bacon

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or an auto collison

nah those dont happen anymore. any dead deer along the road must be either CWD or EHD

just like covid wiped out the common flu

Im guessing he was being a smart ass. Lol. Maybe I’m wrong.
 


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