Mountain Lion Meeting in Fargo tonight, who's going?

[Kurtr]

That study i posted is 100 pages but has alot of info on just how effective of a predator the lions is

 

[KDM]

KDM... you are fun.

The NDGF is not managing a population outside the core area... there is no quota in 2E for lions. So, I don't know how you are assuming the NDGF wants 1 resident lion in this area. That is news to me.

You must have been the mathematician for Al Gore's global warming calculations... you are seriously counting a fawn loss as an extra death from a hypothetical doe killed because she would have had a fawn the following year? So, now it counts as 2 kills. So, every rifle and archery hunter that shoots a doe is taking an extra deer over their limit because they are technically killing 2 deer because that doe would have had a fawn the following year. Hell, lets stretch that out over 5 years... one dead doe would have resulted in 32 deer 5 years later. My god, how can we sustain a population when 1 cat is killing 32 deer if it kills of one doe. LISTEN TO YOURSELF...

Remember KDM...
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Wasn't talking to you CH in that post. The extra loss was for that year only and that is only hypothetical and not fact, but is useful to illustrate the potential impact of one lion on deer populations with respect to tag numbers. I thought you were smart enough to pick up on that. However, keep the original 52 deer killed per lion as a basis and try to show me where I'm wrong. Show me the benefits of having lions in ND. If you can.

 

[johnr]

Great points KDM

 

[dean nelson]

Wasn't talking to you CH in that post. The extra loss was for that year only and that is only hypothetical and not fact, but is useful to illustrate the potential impact of one lion on deer populations with respect to tag numbers. I thought you were smart enough to pick up on that. However, keep the original 52 deer killed per lion as a basis and try to show me where I'm wrong. Show me the benefits of having lions in ND. If you can.

Less deer means less tags which means less guys from WI coming here! See that was easy.:;:howdy

 

[KDM]

Less deer means less tags which means less guys from WI coming here! See that was easy.:;:howdy

You have one the them red buttons on your desk, don't you???

 

[remm]

So is it the leading edge of the mountain lion migration from SD to ND that is affecting the number of whitetail gratis tags in 2E?
I'm confused, guess it's a pretty good week to be a little slow at work. Plenty of entertainment on here.;:;popcorn

 

[gst]

Holy smokes guys, can;t we have a discussion about a topic without it turning into a back and forth pissin match...................


I don;t mind lions being here and being managed, but KDM has some valid points, no one can know to what degree the deer population is being impacted because no one has any core base numbers to start from. The G&F do not do counts as they would like people to believe. Their "numbers" are based on statistical data results and in the past the "formula" behind those numbers they actually collect (hunter success, days in the field ect...) was flawed because they were not considering outside influences like how many feet of snow was on the ground blocking roads as to what was impacting hunter success.

Randy Kriel showed me results of the hunter success surveys for two seasons in our unit and told me that because they had dropped roughly 15% that told them there were less deer in those units so they cut tag back the following year.

I asked him if he stopped to consider the fact we had two consecutive years of 1 1/2 feet of snow that blocked roads limiting travel had anything ot do with lower success numbers and it was clear from his response they had never considered that. We ended up with waaay more deer and numbers increasing for the next several years.....(which maybe that was the goal in the beginning) Then with too many deer............well everyone knows the story.

It would be curious to know if the percentage of a lions diet that is mule deer changes as mule deer numbers drop.

I'm guessing the G&F is hearing from people that never hunt mule deer in the badlands not caring if there is lions out there that think well maybe I'll go out calling in the winter and have a crack at one. (most of these people never will but they still impact what the G&F hear at a meeting in say Fargo on mt lions in the Badlands. ) Kinda like old liberal bob wanting wyoming ot manage wolves so he could come shoot one when he visits from nd.

But hey guys, try not to turn this into a 55 pager if you can help it............

 

[johnr]

I have been all around these here badlands, hunted muly's, and sharpies in the breaks. I have even taking a horse back ride a couple times(mrs johnr has a good friend with a few horses). I have yet to come across a lion, but have seen some tracks here and there. I don't think the average guy out and about is going to run into one very easily.
I would like to take aim at one, but am guessing it wont likely happen

 

[Kentucky Windage]

I say we take NDGF out of the game and let nature run its course. They're God's lions not the Game and Fish. If He wants them to stay, they will.

 

[Coyote Hunter]

I say we take NDGF out of the game and let nature run its course. They're God's lions not the Game and Fish. If He wants them to stay, they will.

If you took the NDGF out of the game... there would be no mule deer left either. I know I would be out there hunting a muley buck with my made up 4C tag just like everybody else!

- - - Updated - - -

Remember this:

Better to READ my post and THINK about it then to scan it frivolously before showing your true self in a post Coyote Hunter!!!!

I NEVER ONCE said lions were the main reason deer numbers plummeted in the badlands or any other part of the state. My whole post was about how lions, regardless of winter, vehicle collisions, Disease, or any other population control factor WILL further reduce deer populations wherever the two species interact. As far as deer numbers being low across the state, NONE of that makes any difference. Lions, where they are found in ND, have a drastic and dramatic affect on the deer herd there as stated by the NDGF themselves with each lion killing 52 deer annually. Try to keep on target here. You state deer numbers are down statewide. How do YOU know?? The NDGF hasn't flown an aerial survey for white tails in many years, to include this one. Try to do some research before spewing statements that have no backing. I can back up everything I've said with information and reports from the NDGF themselves and have posted this information before. If you can show me how having 1 lion in ND will benefit ND sportsmen more than it will cost them, I'd like to hear it. I deal in numbers and facts, not emotion and politics. I don't care that the lions and deer can coexist. I've shown, on paper, what the costs are to ND sportsmen by having lions. Your turn to show me the benefits to ND sportsmen by having lions.

Do you really want to argue if deer numbers are down statewide from 2008???


From the NDGF on the 2015 Big Game Hunting Outlook:

Mule Deer
Mule deer in North Dakota’s badlands continue to show signs of recovery following severe winters from 2009 through 2011. During that time, mule deer numbers declined by nearly 50 percent.
Spring 2015 marked the third consecutive year that the mule deer index was higher than the previous year. The 2015 spring index was 24 percent higher than 2014, and 16 percent higher than the long-term average.
The population increase can be attributed to no harvest of antlerless mule deer in the badlands during the 2012-14 hunting seasons, a moderate winter over much of the primary mule deer range, and improved fawn production in 2013-14.
The 2014 fawn-to-doe ratio of 95 fawns per 100 does was the highest since 1999, and above the long-term average of 90 fawns per 100 does.


The fawn-to-doe ratio tells me lions are not decimating the fawn population...


If it wasn't for the winters of 09-11, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Deer populations would be high in the badlands, everyone would still be drawing their tags every 4-5 years, life would be good. But the problem is, mother nature is an SOB in North Dakota and it drives wildlife populations much more than any other outside factor.

 

[KDM]

I can't argue that white tail deer numbers are up or down anywhere in the state as there is almost zero data to support for or against either position. For that matter neither can you. The NDGF hasn't done a survey for white tails in many years as I said so anything YOU OR I say would be purely a guess, which is pretty much what they do now. So everything about that part of your post is irrelevant to the lions in ND issue. Nice try at muddying the water with superfluous and meaningless verbal nothingness.

The doe to fawn ratio has nothing to do with lions. It has to do with the number of fawn produced per each doe across an area. Does killed by lions can't and won't be included in any such study as they are dead, so I'm not to sure why you felt that was relevant to your argument. Are you trying to say that lions increase the fawn to doe ratio??

You STILL haven't shown me the benefits to sportsmen by having lions in ND.

 

[Zogman]

I can't argue that white tail deer numbers are up or down anywhere in the state as there is almost zero data to support for or against either position. For that matter neither can you. The NDGF hasn't done a survey for white tails in many years as I said so anything YOU OR I say would be purely a guess, which is pretty much what they do now. So everything about that part of your post is irrelevant to the lions in ND issue. Nice try at muddying the water with superfluous and meaningless verbal nothingness.

The doe to fawn ratio has nothing to do with lions. It has to do with the number of fawn produced per each doe across an area. Does killed by lions can't and won't be included in any such study as they are dead, so I'm not to sure why you felt that was relevant to your argument. Are you trying to say that lions increase the fawn to doe ratio??

You STILL haven't shown me the benefits to sportsmen by having lions in ND.

Bingo we have a winner. And no one with the GnF understands that. Oh and some on here don't either.:;:huh

 

[BBQBluesMan]

I would venture to say that coyotes are way harder on the overall deer population in the state than mountain lions. And by that I mean fawns. Want to help deer? Shoot as many yotes as you can! Oh and plant some trees and crp! Haha. :::

 

[Wildyote]

I have no problem having a few mountain lions running around in North Dakota but the problem lies that cats here in North Dakota form tighter clusters unlike cats do in primary/optimum habitat in other states in the west. The concentrated populations decimate deer populations in these areas and cats move to the next area with a good population of deer and wipe those out. The game and fish needs to recognize that landowner/rancher tolerance of mountain lions is important. If this tolerance is not recognized by NDGF gates close and cats die anyways. There hasn't been extreme livestock losses from mountain lions yet but cats have a habit of circling cattle herds and winding them up which causes fence damage, lower conception rates, lower weaning weights, and ect. There has been some calves and foals lost by cats in the past ten years but they are not as tough on livestock as wolves or grizzlies. I have seen areas in the Badlands that have had the mule deer population almost completely wiped out. These areas can be somewhat small such as just a ranch or 2 or can be the size of several townships. The primary reason the NDGF is looking at lowering the main quota/season because it has not been met the last several years. The reason it has not been met because there are no mule deer doe hunters and fewer buck hunters out in the badlands for 2.5 weeks every fall. The majority of the harvest came from deer hunters incidentally harvesting cats during deer season.

 

[Tim Sandstrom]

I remember when I posted the stuff I read here and I was shred apart. Nobody wanted to believe me a cat killed a deer a week. So I often softened my numbers and gave them one deer every 10 days. Now that the study has concluded looks like I can go back to certainty it's one a week. Karma.

I like wildlife. I like cats. But I like my mule deer more. Story time..

In 2013 I was bow hunting and come across an area where a genetically inclined 5 point muke deer lay dead. He was picked clean. I figured, wounded or hardship. As much as I have vocalized how efficient cats are I never even thought a cat.

In 2014 I had a deer tag. I was in the same area. Just 200 or 300 yards away where I cut fresh (and I mean fresh). Instead of using prime time morning hours to hunt my 6 year tag I took off following the tracks. I burned time and gave up.

As I continued back the mile I burned I crossed the area the mule deer died a year before. It dawned on me its coincidence or reality the same track is the same killer of that deer. The day went on and with each glass session with few deer I became frustrated.

Yes, mule deer numbers are rising but I wonder how much faster they would have if we didn't have the number of cats we do. Just 10 cats kill 500 deer in a year. That's twice the tags issued in 2014 in my unit. I choose deer over cats.

The decline comes from less deer. The regular season quota hasn't performed well in recent years but still had an impressive total especially when you realize very few hunters had feet or eyes over the landscape like the times the regular season quotas were filled or nearly filled.

A true indicator is what houndsmen do. They fill and fill fast. It isn't just because dogs are efficient it's because there still are a good number of cats.

Leave the quota the way it is. Once houndsmen begin to fail filling the tags then we know we've put a dent in the population and can adjust then.

Say what Tim, that's not fair because it's too late? Yeah well when I was adamant years and years before and during the winter decline cats were wreaking havoc the mule deer weren't treated fairly either by not believing cats were setting up shop in ND. That delay killed more deer than can ever be porportionally compared to a potential over harvest of cats.

 

[Captain Ahab]

I've never been a cat person. Let the ranchers whack away.