anyone heating with coal?

[pluckem]

Some good points above, but the key take away is "it depends". Lots of variables at play with your specific heat loads, utilities available to you, and your geographic location.

Some rural electric coops will offer different incentives, off peak vs peak meters, excavation costs and well depth related to geothermal, is natural gas available to you at this location? What's the delivery charge on the coal and who is delivering, the list goes on.

I know when the federal tax incentives disappeared on the geothermal systems from a straight $$ analysis, the majority of the time, it doesn't pencil out compared to the high efficiency natural gas furnaces.

 

[Lycanthrope]

Geo might be the way to go, space certainly isnt an issue in my location. can you do a deep field, with maybe 3 runs stacked on top of each other, each 5ft apart, starting 10ft down and going down to 25ft or so?

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Some good points above, but the key take away is "it depends". Lots of variables at play with your specific heat loads, utilities available to you, and your geographic location.

Some rural electric coops will offer different incentives, off peak vs peak meters, excavation costs and well depth related to geothermal, is natural gas available to you at this location? What's the delivery charge on the coal and who is delivering, the list goes on.

I know when the federal tax incentives disappeared on the geothermal systems from a straight $$ analysis, the majority of the time, it doesn't pencil out compared to the high efficiency natural gas furnaces.

No NG in this location unfortunately... That would make the decision a lot easier. Not a fan of propane and its expensive...

 

[Allen]

Geo might be the way to go, space certainly isnt an issue in my location. can you do a deep field, with maybe 3 runs stacked on top of each other, each 5ft apart, starting 10ft down and going down to 25ft or so?

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No NG in this location unfortunately... That would make the decision a lot easier. Not a fan of propane and its expensive...

Once you start digging down to 25 ft with a hoe, you've lost control of costs. Depending on the construction style of the building/home, you need someone familiar with geothermal systems to design how much "loop" you need for heat exchange with the ground. Putting loops on top of each other by some 5 ft seems to me like a bad idea. You need "X" distance between any overlapping loops in the ground and I'm not sure 5 ft would be enough. By using a trench style installation, you can dig a trench to ~6.5-7 ft with a modest sized backhoe. You just need to know how long of a trench is needed.

I wonder why a person can't install a geothermal loop using something equivalent to a drain tile plow? There have to be models that go to 6-8 ft depth, no? ​

 

[gone_fishing]

Since we are talking about geothermal, I thought some might find this information interesting: https://ndawn.ndsu.nodak.edu/deep-soil-temperatures.html

Shows soil temps across the state down to 7.5' deep. Would be curious what they would be at 10'

 

[Davey Crockett]

lycan, If I was starting from scratch I'd put some serious thought and research into an air to air or even a hybrid system and combine it with a walipini and get 3 birds with one stone. greenhouse/root cellar/mechanical room. In theory this seems like an awesome system. My livelihood was installing vertical wellfields but mostly for large industrial commercial systems because they pencil out to be a no brainer but residential is borderline feasible. I am not "in the loop" anymore on the technical end of things but with a little design work this seems like the most feasible option to install a geo system.

Geothermal is a fairly new industry and the consensus was in the early years that North Dakota was too cold for trench systems but better heat pumps and controls have proven them to be very efficient. Anything above 32 degrees is heat so the complaint with old air to air systems is that they were useless when it is cold out.


There are walipini green houses growing oranges in the upper Midwest and to my knowledge they are doing it without heat pumps so that tells me something.

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Once you start digging down to 25 ft with a hoe, you've lost control of costs. Depending on the construction style of the building/home, you need someone familiar with geothermal systems to design how much "loop" you need for heat exchange with the ground. Putting loops on top of each other by some 5 ft seems to me like a bad idea. You need "X" distance between any overlapping loops in the ground and I'm not sure 5 ft would be enough. By using a trench style installation, you can dig a trench to ~6.5-7 ft with a modest sized backhoe. You just need to know how long of a trench is needed.

I wonder why a person can't install a geothermal loop using something equivalent to a drain tile plow? There have to be models that go to 6-8 ft depth, no? ​

Every time I see the pile of coils by the Buxton exit that light bulb goes off in my head.

 

[roosterfish]

All the subsidies were done by the time I built so it was going to cost me over 25,000G on a 40 x 100 slab on grade. Made the decision
to spray foam instead. Am really impressed with how well it retains heat/cooling with floor heat and ducted A/C

 

[Sum1]

Whats the life expectancy of the Geo thermal units?? Seems like if you would have any kind of problem you’d be looking at big bucks to fix. Just curious

 

[Kurtr]

Whats the life expectancy of the Geo thermal units?? Seems like if you would have any kind of problem you’d be looking at big bucks to fix. Just curious

the loops would be the expensive part and being plastic unless some one hit them or just a odd case of bad luck those should last for ever other wise it would be the normal life span of the equipment.

 

[Petras]

Whats the life expectancy of the Geo thermal units?? Seems like if you would have any kind of problem you’d be looking at big bucks to fix. Just curious

Think of a Geothermal unit as a Central Air unit that can run either forward or backward. The cost to repair a geothermal unit is going to be comparable to that of fixing a Central Air unit. There are a couple extra pieces of equipment involved depending whether or not you want to heat water or not, or if you are using a horizontal or vertical field instead of an air exchange unit, so that can add some extra costs. The place that I priced out a system at said they have some very well maintained systems still being used that were installed over 50 years ago.

 

[WormWiggler]

It was quite a few years ago that a guy told me his geothermal wouldn't keep up in the winter, had to supplement but he was pleased overall.

 

[Petras]

It was quite a few years ago that a guy told me his geothermal wouldn't keep up in the winter, had to supplement but he was pleased overall.

Did he have an air exchanger, well, or horizontal field?

 

[Lycanthrope]

Im guessing you could also extract water from a geo well? Could be a 2 birds one stone type deal then...

 

[Kurtr]

Im guessing you could also extract water from a geo well? Could be a 2 birds one stone type deal then...

I dont think so its a closed loop into the system with the glycoll solution but i could be wrong just trying to remember how my FIL system works i can ask him tonight

 

[Allen]

Im guessing you could also extract water from a geo well? Could be a 2 birds one stone type deal then...

You would have a very difficult time trying to get a water permit for an open style geothermal setup in ND. Or just about anywhere for that matter.

 

[WormWiggler]

Did he have an air exchanger, well, or horizontal field?

I don't recall, this was when they first become popular.

 

[Retired-Guy]

Had a neighbor that lived across the alley in Minnesota that heated with coal. It was such a pleasure to walk outside on a crisp, cold, clear winter's eve and SMELL THAT SHIT! Not!

 

[db-2]

I remember, i think it was 1963, when one morning as i went downstairs my mother was telling my dad how nice it was not to have to get up to a cold house and go into the basementt and put coal in the furnance.
How nice it was now that there was oil heat with just a themostat to turn on the wall.
How nice it was not to haul ashes out from the basement.

And life was better. Maybe close to when we got running water, no more outdoor outhouse, REA and no longer a maytag gas engine to start to charge the 32 volt direct current system up in the house for lights. For me it was as nice as dad selling the 12 milk cows and then those worthless chickhens, a 806 with power steering and not a WD-9 with manual steering that I could not turn.

When the land ran out of rocks and no longer needed to pick by hand or pitch hay building a hay stack (however those square bales where no joy) A TV and the list goes on.

Yes life got better when the coal went. db

 

[TFX 186]

I've had a geothermal heating system for about 32 years. I replaced my furnace 2 years ago. I started to have trouble and the service guy would come and put more freon in my unit. I finally had to replace the furnace because it had a leak and wasn't cost effective to throw a bunch of money at it. I just replaced it with a new unit. I hardly spent anything on my old furnace for maintenance or upkeep. One key thing is to have a knowledgeable geothermal guy set up the system and figure out what you need as far as sizing and setup. I had a hard time finding anyone who knew anything about the geo furnaces to come and even check out the initial problem. I have a great guy now.
Do some research and talk to a bunch of geo guys. Good luck.
I should also tell you that I have wells in my back yard. I didn't have enough room to trench and bury pipe.

Fish On!

 

[Duckslayer100]

Think of a Geothermal unit as a Central Air unit that can run either forward or backward. The cost to repair a geothermal unit is going to be comparable to that of fixing a Central Air unit. There are a couple extra pieces of equipment involved depending whether or not you want to heat water or not, or if you are using a horizontal or vertical field instead of an air exchange unit, so that can add some extra costs. The place that I priced out a system at said they have some very well maintained systems still being used that were installed over 50 years ago.

Um no.

I work for a residential HVAC service and repair company. The single most expensive repairs (and most problematic systems) we routinely stumble across are geo thermal.

Compressors need to be special ordered as nobody around keeps them in stock. Turn-around time can take 1-2 weeks, and longer during peak seasons. Pumps are the same. And lord help you if there's a leak somewhere. I think the theory behind geo is sound, and there's a lot of potential there. But long-term it's going to potentially cost you beucoup bucks, especially if you're not an annual maintenance kinda guy.

Truth be told, I think 99 percent of the issues stem from improper installation. When geo was all the rage 8-10 years ago, every swinging dick with an HVAC license (and some without) wanted a piece of the action. Well, you get what you pay for. We have a customer west of DL who had a company install his Geo, then went out of business. Now he's stuck with an expensive system that kicks out error codes like a Bismarck bouncer, and is considering starting over with a standard forced-air system and air-to-air heat pump.

it seems to me when it comes to equipment, heating and cooling included, the simpler it is, the better. If I were to build a home out of town, I'd consider something like a gas-forced air system with electric plenum heater for backup. If there's an opportunity to do off-peak electric, I'd run a heat pump and have the propane furnace as secondary heat source. For my outbuildings, simple hung unit heaters would suffice. As long as they're insulated and you keep the doors closed more than they're open in the winter, unit heaters can be relatively inexpensive to run and maintain.

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I've had a geothermal heating system for about 32 years. I replaced my furnace 2 years ago. I started to have trouble and the service guy would come and put more freon in my unit. I finally had to replace the furnace because it had a leak and wasn't cost effective to throw a bunch of money at it. I just replaced it with a new unit. I hardly spent anything on my old furnace for maintenance or upkeep. One key thing is to have a knowledgeable geothermal guy set up the system and figure out what you need as far as sizing and setup. I had a hard time finding anyone who knew anything about the geo furnaces to come and even check out the initial problem. I have a great guy now.
Do some research and talk to a bunch of geo guys. Good luck.
I should also tell you that I have wells in my back yard. I didn't have enough room to trench and bury pipe.

Fish On!

What he said!! ^^^

 

[LBrandt]

I remember, i think it was 1963, when one morning as i went downstairs my mother was telling my dad how nice it was not to have to get up to a cold house and go into the basementt and put coal in the furnance.
How nice it was now that there was oil heat with just a themostat to turn on the wall.
How nice it was not to haul ashes out from the basement.

And life was better. Maybe close to when we got running water, no more outdoor outhouse, REA and no longer a maytag gas engine to start to charge the 32 volt direct current system up in the house for lights. For me it was as nice as dad selling the 12 milk cows and then those worthless chickhens, a 806 with power steering and not a WD-9 with manual steering that I could not turn.

When the land ran out of rocks and no longer needed to pick by hand or pitch hay building a hay stack (however those square bales where no joy) A TV and the list goes on.
(You damed near wrote my early life story except we heated with wood in a huge kitchen stove and a oil burning free standing stove in the living room.)