Kratom

[Davey Crockett]

oh I get it , Telling the truth is bashing to some. I'd never thought of it that way, All I have to offer is If the spade hurts that's tough luck.

 

[guywhofishes]

Who is bashing big pharma ? This discussion is about alternatives to a drug that is highly addictive and has ruined hundreds of thousands of families and personal lives and caused 47,600 overdose deaths in 2017 (67.8% of all drug overdose deaths). This is simply looking at other options than a death sentence for those that have no other choice between pain or meds for the rest of their life . Your right , We know exactly what is in opioids , A disaster waiting to happen so we looking at other options.
You acted the same way when we had a hemp topic, It's like we are invading your space by having discussions about it. I'll get the hell out of here with this "natural silliness" when someone with authority tells me to.

You do? That is taking the word of the fda now it has been proven by a doctor who helped develop OxyContin that at first the fda had ruled not for every day use. We’ll magically after some money and a little lobbying that little tidbit was changed and the every day use of opioids was born. There is some place that is between what big pharmaceutical and the natural world wants. Big pharmaceutical though is here to make money and healing people takes them off the pay roll so there is something to think about. Also how many cases have there been where now pills are manufactured in not so high of standards and people die or get sick from something that is in there shouldn’t be.

As an analytical chemist with 30 yrs of experience, a focus on organic compounds, and a fairly robust understanding of compound toxicity, I figure I get to have an opinion on this topic.

Kurtr - aside from the thalidomide baby case (there was actually a genuinely "innocent" reason it happened), can you cite some recent examples of big pharma poisoning people with impure compounds? Also, you work to get paid. And are you sabotaging your projects at work so that you have to do them again for more money? You must be... since capitalism inherently makes people do evil. So that is "something to think about".

And Davey - my beef with hemp was the overly rosy financial success case - and for for how big ag and big gov were trying to prevent its legalization and the rosy sea change it was going to bring to farmers if only it was legal. It IS legal in lots of poor countries and, like sugar, it's hard to compete with other countries that can easily keep up with any demand for hemp fiber. But you always twist my case into something it wasn't - don't you Davey? And please refrain from making future statements about how you are able to "let things go" and "bury the hatchet". It makes you look hypocritical. That giant hemp chip on your shoulder is there to stay and we both know it. Why not embrace it and tell me off in a couple more posts so that you feel better for an hour or two and then we can act like it isn't there for a month or a year until it gets heavy again? Or better yet - send me a PM with some vulgarities. That shut me up last time.

And if a topic comes up advocating not vaccinating your kids, I'll weigh in on that too. In general, when I see posts that I think mislead people into making mistakes or they are supporting issues I think are potentially harmful to themselves or their community I'll make a post that suggests people should be careful - and why. Like I did when a NDA member was applying permethrin directly to his skin to combat ticks or mosquitoes.

 

[AaronJ]

I will have to look into this Kratom. It, without any research on my end yet, sound like KHAT; an herb that we saw a spike of in Fargo about 10 or so years ago. If memory serves me correct it was brought over from Nigeria or other African nation. It wasn't wide spread.

I am in healthcare and try to find some middle ground. Do I believe FDA approved/regulated drugs are overpriced....heck yeah. I have a diabetic teen in my home and the $$ we spend on Diabetic supplies (meds, testing supplies, etc) could pay for a tracked SXS in about 2 years. However,it takes many millions to come up with the compound, run trials, etc. Pharma is a business and they have to keep the lights on, pay salaries, pay for the extensive pre-launch trials/testing, etc.

My main issue with homeopathic, natural, etc is the lack of regulation. A 75mg dose is often way under or way over that stated amount. That is where the FDA is our best friend. Natural can kill you as well. The under-regulation or, better stated, lack of quality/dose control in natural products is what I have concerns about.

 

[Davey Crockett]

SMH. I'll pass , You were always right back then and will always be right in the future.

 

[guywhofishes]

Good.

 

[Davey Crockett]

Thanks for setting that permethrin guy straight , He needed some advice for sure. I come here to learn, Not so much about economics and feasibility but I have always been interested in the medical , industrial and ag industries. Just to be clear my wife and I get our shots as do my kids and grandkids and we use repel for ticks and mosquitos so we are fine in our own health care decisions but there is no sin in having questions. You keep bringing up our dispute about Hemp. Once and for all I apologise that we didn't agree on the financial end of hemp. I don't have anything to crow about.

 

[Kurtr]

As an analytical chemist with 30 yrs of experience, a focus on organic compounds, and a fairly robust understanding of compound toxicity, I figure I get to have an opinion on this topic.

Kurtr - aside from the thalidomide baby case (there was actually a genuinely "innocent" reason it happened), can you cite some recent examples of big pharma poisoning people with impure compounds? Also, you work to get paid. And are you sabotaging your projects at work so that you have to do them again for more money? You must be... since capitalism inherently makes people do evil. So that is "something to think about".


.

First i am all about making money but not some one making money off my back when my tax dollars are going in ever increasing rates to fight an epidemic that should be talked about.

a quick google search shows a few

https://www.google.com/search?q=tai...1.69i57j0l3.5130j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


i cant believe some one who is conservative and not all about govt is all about trusting the govt saying something is safe to put in your body. I would like to believe you could have a little more subjective or open thinking when looking at alternative things. The vitamin and natural and supplement market are the wild west and wildly under regulated thats a fact i can get on board with more non govt regulation that cant be controlled by lobbyist which the fda and dea have both proven not to be above. People should be free to research and choose what options they want to use. They are getting the drug of choice one way or another be it from the dealer doctor or the internet from mexico or china.

I agree with Aaron that we need to find a middle ground and there is some where there

 

[guywhofishes]

natural products contain a host of compounds besides the ones that are responsible for the action we desire

the nicotine in tobacco that we desire isn’t what gives us cancer

say what you want about big pharma - at least you know exactly what you’re putting in your body

You do? That is taking the word of the fda now it has been proven by a doctor who helped develop OxyContin that at first the fda had ruled not for every day use. We’ll magically after some money and a little lobbying that little tidbit was changed and the every day use of opioids was born. There is some place that is between what big pharmaceutical and the natural world wants. Big pharmaceutical though is here to make money and healing people takes them off the pay roll so there is something to think about. Also how many cases have there been where now pills are manufactured in not so high of standards and people die or get sick from something that is in there shouldn’t be.

My point was about knowing what you are putting in your body. I said nothing of ethics, of the fact that pharma CEOs are not being paid grossly more than what they are worth, or anything else defending pharma.

Re-read my sentence. It literally gives you my agreement to say anything you want about them - but you can't say they don't deliver what's on the label and nothing else.

That was my only point. Only the Lord knows what's in the supposed Kratom you buy off ebay, but with big pharma at least you get what's written on the label and nothing else.

 

[Kurtr]

My point was about knowing what you are putting in your body. I said nothing of ethics, of the fact that pharma CEOs are not being paid grossly more than what they are worth, or anything else defending pharma.

Re-read my sentence. It literally gives you my agreement to say anything you want about them - but you can't say they don't deliver what's on the label and nothing else.

That was my only point. Only the Lord knows what's in the supposed Kratom you buy off ebay, but with big pharma at least you get what's written on the label and nothing else.

If the fda regulated Kratom and had it approved would it then be ok?

 

[guywhofishes]

Define "OK".

 

[Kurtr]

As OK as any other opioid that is on the market. As it seems you want the govt to tell you something is what they say.

 

[guywhofishes]

Yes, I like purity laws and the fed agencies that enforce those laws. They help me know that what is being sold as something is that thing.

If you feel another way about that then great - I guess.

Not sure why you keep bringing opioids into this? Am I missing something?

 

[Kurtr]

That is what people have said this is a substitute for chronic pain and opiods are what doctors prescribe for chronic pain.

If big pharma did not have so much invested in the drugs already i think they would do more in the research of natural stuff.

With research and vetting would you be open to letting natural remedies be on the market or prescribed along side of the chemically engineered drugs?

I would feel better if the fda was not controlled by politicians as i have a distrust for the govt in general

 

[guywhofishes]

Agreed. I would like to see open competition, lower prices, less opioids being prescribed by Dr's for profit (should be a damn death penalty for those monsters). Many things about big pharma are indeed evil/greedy.

I'd like to see natural "meds" more available but purity must be assured AND people need to be be educated about the damage they might do themselves.

Problem with things like Kratom is that they can be abused for getting high. Anything that gets people amped, psychotic, etc. but gets sold to help a real problem will result in people abusing it. Like spray paint for crap's sake... or cold medicine. Or bath salts. WTF is wrong with people? It shouldn't happen but it's a human condition.

The devil puts a price on everything it seems.

So the problem becomes.... do we open things up and the few innocent people that get murdered, burgled, get their face chewed off, etc. by loony tunes getting high - are they just a price to be paid for open access?

Or do we limit access.... and then people in chronic pain who might benefit but can't get their hands on it - so they are the people who pay the price.

And speaking of educated... NOBODY who sticks meth or opioids in their body for fun doesn't know the risks by now. And yet thousands are still dying. Why? Because no matter what - a certain percentage of people are addicts and will die when we open up access (legal or illegal) to any type to addictive compounds.

Balancing these issues seems impossible.

 

[Kurtr]

I agree that balancing it is damn hard. Booze which killed 10784 people from drunk drivers last year is a prime example. Every one is fine with it being legal because it has been the status quo for so long and prohibition was proven not to work. I think in the end it proves as humans as much as we want to protect each other we cant.

 

[Davey Crockett]

So the problem becomes.... do we open things up and the few innocent people that get murdered, burgled, get their face chewed off, etc. by loony tunes getting high - are they just a price to be paid for open access?

Or do we limit access.... and then people in chronic pain who might benefit but can't get their hands on it - so they are the people who pay the price.


It's already legal and in the same plant family of coffee, How is coffee regulated for our consumption ? Serious question and not trying to be right or argue but for conversation sake do we really know what's in our cup of coffee ? I'm all for safety and standards to protect consumers but as far as limiting access or right out banning because of a few innocent people that get murdered I am against it for the simple reason that it's exactly what liberals want to do with our gun laws.

- - - Updated - - -

If big pharma did not have so much invested in the drugs already i think they would do more in the research of natural stuff.

That's the sticker , I think there is potential for a big naturopathic company to rise up and grab the market by the horns and advocate stricter regulations and the smaller fly by night companies will fold but I doubt we will ever see it happen in our lifetime.

 

[Davey Crockett]

The local news channel tonight.

https://www.kxnet.com/news/bismarck-news/pain-patients-call-herbal-supplement-kratom-a-lifesaver-and-alternative-to-opiates/1815760772


[video]https://www.kxnet.com/news/bismarck-news/pain-patients-call-herbal-supplement-kratom-a-lifesaver-and-alternative-to-opiates/1815760772[/video]

 

[Davey Crockett]

I was digging for whatever information I could find on this kratom stuff and at the FDA website I noticed a recall on one of my meds due to traces of carcinogen (cancer causing agent) . There was no lot # on my container to confirm if mine was part of the recall or not so I emailed FDA a question .

Me to FDA ~ " I noticed a recent recall on Losartan due to possible carcinogen contamination and I see the affected lot # posted on your website but when I looked for the lot # on the packaging provided by my pharmacy I was surprised that there isn't one. Are we at the mercy of relying on our pharmacy to contact us about recalls or what is the safety procedure when recalls occur ?"


FDA response~ "

We greatly appreciate your time and effort in contacting the FDA to share your concern regarding the losartan drug recall. We understand your frustration with the limited information provided by your pharmacy. We recommend that you contact your pharmacy to obtain the lot number but we understand that if your medication was dispensed to you in the pharmacy’s container, then it may be difficult to track the lot number you were dispensed. Please understand that we do not regulate the practice of pharmacy and If you wish to learn about the regulation that governs what information must be provided by the pharmacy, please contact your respective state board of pharmacy.

Once you have the lot number, to find out if the losartan you take is part of the recall, please visit the following link, which lists losartan containing drugs with corresponding manufacturers and lot numbers that are affected by the recall at losartan medications under recall. Losartan belongs to a drug class called angiotensin II receptor blocker (ARB). Please see the FDA updates on ARB recalls including valsartan, losartan, and Irbesartan webpage for the most up-to-date information. Please note that the FDA continues to investigate this matter and will post new information as it becomes available. Therefore, we recommend that you check our website frequently for updates and consult with your physician regarding any medical issue.


You may also wish to view the Statement from FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb, M.D., and Janet Woodcock, M.D., director of the Center for Drug Evaluation and Research on the FDA’s ongoing investigation into valsartan and ARB class impurities and the agency’s steps to address the root causes of the safety issues for more information.

For your future reference, please be advised that you may review the drug recall notices from our Drug Recalls or Recalls, Market Withdrawals, & Safety Alerts websites.

We hope the information provided to you is helpful. If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us again.



So I called my pharmacy and they couldn't provide me with a lot # but they assured me my meds were not contaminated as it was a different brand than the recalled drug . For my own information I inquired why they couldn't provide me with a lot # and it's because they take meds out of multiple bottles and there is no way to know what lot # my prescription was filled from .

Then I looked again this morning at the FDA recall and it has been updated " The recall is due to unacceptable amounts of N-Nitrosodiethylamine (NDEA) . I wish I would have taken a screenshot before the update just for the heck of it .




Not sure how or why the contaminant changed overnight but it did, I suppose further testing. There are a lot of recalls on meds and most probably go unnoticed by consumers.

 

[eyexer]

ive been taking kratom for almost 2 years now.this stuff absolutely works for chronic pain.my knees and back were in such pain i had a hard time walking some days. the previous post is right, big pharma has paid fda commissioner scott gottleib to try to secretly schedule kratom as a class 1 drug because it has the potential to cost them billions.big pharma cant patent kratom because it works as a whole,not just one part of it.(they cant patent a natural plant.) kratom has been a lifesaver for me.

Where do you get it

- - - Updated - - -

The local news channel tonight.

https://www.kxnet.com/news/bismarck-news/pain-patients-call-herbal-supplement-kratom-a-lifesaver-and-alternative-to-opiates/1815760772


[video]https://www.kxnet.com/news/bismarck-news/pain-patients-call-herbal-supplement-kratom-a-lifesaver-and-alternative-to-opiates/1815760772[/video]

damn it. They could have kept that out of media until legislative session was over. It will now be outlawed in ND

 

[Davey Crockett]

Where do you get it


Eye, Based on everything I have read unless you are currently on opioids or have long term chronic pain and wish that you were then I'd shy away. It has it's place in the medical world but people can get hooked on kratom just like opioids, Booze, coffee or any thing else that can be addictive.

The problem with anything natural VS opioids that can help someone with long term chronic pain is pretty much all the same, kratom is just like the medical marijuana scene and that's abuse or recreational use leads to problems for some people so the feds won't come out with the truth that it has medicinal value in society and they put it on schedule one .
( With help from big pharma)

It would be nice to know more about using the stuff on an as needed basis but all I have found are 3 sides of the story. It works great, or it has no medicinal value , Or It is addicting. Based on everything I have read I believe it works great and I believe you can get addicted to it. That makes MMJ look more attractive for chronic pain but the way the law is now , They want your guns if you have a MMJ card and that is just messed up and the reason there will never be a MMJ card in our household.

For those that jump to conclusions that people who are curious about "Natural stuff" It's simply because not everybody is OK with putting opioids in their body for long term. Opioids are the devil for someone that will have to be on them for the rest of their life.