Oppenheimer (2023)

[BigWalleyeCatcher]

With the highly anticipated movie coming out this Friday, I thought I should shed some light on how underplayed the Manhattan Project is on todays nuclear talk. In 1938, two German Scientists discovered that by smacking uranium with neutrons you could actually split it creating a chain reaction. Little was thought about the scientific breakthrough and Germany in large thought that it has possible medical capabilities. When British scientists began tests in what is now called “nuclear fission” they concluded that if you were to harness enough of a certain type of uranium and split it, it could cause a reaction like that of a never before seen bomb”. Although Nazi Germany worked on a bomb during the majority of WWII they were never close to actually completely one. Werner Heisenberg was the lead scientist for the Germans and when he had heard news the United States had a dropped and A bomb on Japan he refused to believe it was possible! American generals in the pacific laughed at the idea that a singular bomb, in this case two could end a war. Togethor General Douglas MacArthur and General Dwight Eisenhower planned an invasion of the Japanese mainland. This invasions was expected to take six months to a year to complete and cost in all likelihood a million plus American lives. When Truman dropped the bombs it shocked Eisenhower, MacArthur would later ask Truman to bomb China…. The Manhattan Project won the war for the United States but at what cost? I’ll lose this question to ponder. Was the United States justified in using the worlds first weapon of mass destruction?

 

[Allen]

Yes, it was justified on the expected casualties alone (I believe the actual estimate was a million casualties including deaths and wounded). As a leader you would always choose the fewer casualties if the outcome is the same.

Now, there's always been the question on whether or not Japan would have surrendered if we had demonstrated the bomb on a relatively uninhabited area with the threat of the next one being in downtown Tokyo, but that is pure speculation and ignores the dedication of the ordinary Japanese to their emperor and country.

There's certainly a LOT of moving parts when it comes to politics, and one of the moving parts here was the USSR. They jumped in late to take a few islands, that they never gave back, and there was definitely a feeling that the Russians would have taken much more if the war had lasted much longer. None of this even starts to describe the whole world's wish to end the war as fast as possible. People were tired of war by this point and there weren't a lot of people asking if it was a reasonable way to end it until MANY years later.

BTW, I spent over three years at a Marine Corps base about 20 miles from Hiroshima. When I wasn't deployed elsewhere, I spent more than half of my weekends up in Hiroshima. Beautiful city with a very American friendly population for the most part, I'd say that while the bomb was a necessary evil, the U.S. got exactly what it hoped for out of its rebuilding of Japan and making them an ally instead of an enemy. Not unlike we did in Europe as well.

I personally have a lot of fond memories of late nights up in Peace Park.

p.s. MacArthur's request was during the Korean War, just wanted to clarify that for our fellow members who might wonder why would have wanted to bomb China in WWII.

 

[guywhofishes]

Yes, completely justified. Ridiculously easy decision to make IMO.

 

[Auggie]

A really easy and interesting read is Bomb:The race to build and steal the world's most dangerous weapon, by Steven Shrinking.

 

[MicLee]

Yes, but I still wish there was no such thing as an atomic bomb.

 

[guywhofishes]

Yes, but I still wish there was no such thing as an atomic bomb.

Believe it or not, it maybe is the reason we've had as little war (deaths) as we have had since its invention.

Man is a warring animal. Most people forget how it's in our very DNA (unfortunately).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

 

[Allen]

I think most military historians would also suggest that the invention of the atomic bomb has kept larger nations from locking horns directly. And that is not just us, but Pakistan/India, China/USSR, Israel and the whole Arab suite of nations.

Instead we find ourselves in proxy wars and asymetric conflicts where at least one of the protagonists doesn't really have infrastructure they care enough about to prevent them from being former shitheads. Al Quaeda, Hezbollah, ISIS, etc, etc.

Let's face it, the Ukraine (and to a lesser extent, Libya) have demonstrated the negative effects of not having at least a few nukes in your arsenal of toys.

 

[jdfisherman]

Believe it or not, it maybe is the reason we've had as little war (deaths) as we have had since its invention.

Man is a warring animal. Most people forget how it's in our very DNA (unfortunately).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

 

[BigWalleyeCatcher]

Yes, it was justified on the expected casualties alone (I believe the actual estimate was a million casualties including deaths and wounded). As a leader you would always choose the fewer casualties if the outcome is the same.

Now, there's always been the question on whether or not Japan would have surrendered if we had demonstrated the bomb on a relatively uninhabited area with the threat of the next one being in downtown Tokyo, but that is pure speculation and ignores the dedication of the ordinary Japanese to their emperor and country.

There's certainly a LOT of moving parts when it comes to politics, and one of the moving parts here was the USSR. They jumped in late to take a few islands, that they never gave back, and there was definitely a feeling that the Russians would have taken much more if the war had lasted much longer. None of this even starts to describe the whole world's wish to end the war as fast as possible. People were tired of war by this point and there weren't a lot of people asking if it was a reasonable way to end it until MANY years later.

BTW, I spent over three years at a Marine Corps base about 20 miles from Hiroshima. When I wasn't deployed elsewhere, I spent more than half of my weekends up in Hiroshima. Beautiful city with a very American friendly population for the most part, I'd say that while the bomb was a necessary evil, the U.S. got exactly what it hoped for out of its rebuilding of Japan and making them an ally instead of an enemy. Not unlike we did in Europe as well.

I personally have a lot of fond memories of late nights up in Peace Park.

p.s. MacArthur's request was during the Korean War, just wanted to clarify that for our fellow members who might wonder why would have wanted to bomb China in WWII.

I would have went into more detail but I figured no one wanted my entire history lesson. Yes MacArthur feared China during the period of the Korean War. At the same time however he wasn’t exactly in a stable mental state. We are taking about a guy that just five year following World War II was ready to jump into WWIII. For as excellent of a commander of troops as he was his downfall discredits a lot of his career. He is on record for multiple occasions in which he referred to the at the time late FDR and then President Truman as communists…

 

[BigWalleyeCatcher]

Yes, completely justified. Ridiculously easy decision to make IMO.

At the time I think it was. I do question them dropping the second bomb however.

 

[BigWalleyeCatcher]

Believe it or not, it maybe is the reason we've had as little war (deaths) as we have had since its invention.

Man is a warring animal. Most people forget how it's in our very DNA (unfortunately).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

Possibly, but the world wasn’t ready for another war following the early to mid 1900s. You could make the argument that it was more likely nuclear weapons have brought upon more surrender than true fighting.

 

[Captain Ahab]

After Pearl Harbor I think it was pretty easy to push the button.

 

[guywhofishes]

At the time I think it was. I do question them dropping the second bomb

the japs were given every chance to prevent BOTH

japs played for keeps

how would you have played the second??? a few more rounds of conventional carpet bombing???

 

[Zogman]

Yes, my Dad served in the South Pacific at the time. There was a lot rejoicing at that time by a lot of military personnel

 

[Allen]

At the time I think it was. I do question them dropping the second bomb however.

Do not question the 2nd bomb just because there were a mere 3 days between them. The Japs were not convinced we could replicate the damage in Hiro. Oddly enough, they were right if we are talking about the 3rd or 4th bomb. We had a pretty limited supply of Atomic bombs and there really was no realistic chance of a third bomb on short notice.

 

[ndfinfan]

I always enjoy reading historical posts that then cause speculation and what if discussions. I think one of the most interesting what if discussions I've ever taken part in centered around the industrial revolution. In the mid 90s I took an ancient Greek and Roman history class at Minot State. During one of the lectures about Roman engineering and technology, the professor said something that I still occasionally consider today. He simply said that had the Roman empire not collapsed when it did, the pace of technology advancement could have continued on a path that would have ushered in the industrial revolution centuries sooner than when it actually took place. Where would we be today if the industrial revolution occurred in the 1600s rather than the 1800s!

 

[MicLee]

Believe it or not, it maybe is the reason we've had as little war (deaths) as we have had since its invention.

Man is a warring animal. Most people forget how it's in our very DNA (unfortunately).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

That’s a great point.

 

[zoops]

Hard to imagine our world if Germany or Japan would have figured it out first.

 

[lunkerslayer]

You had to think that someone had to have known about two Russian spies where part of the Manhattan project, was it deliberate or did two lone wolves fall through the cracks? You would have thought the government would haved went through an extensive vetting process to make sure no one was a double agent. Or did the united states know and realized that keeping the Russians from killing themselves with inferior technology would have been a bigger catastrophic mess. After ww2 we needed a big bad wolf like the ussr to help keep fear in the minds of the population of the states, even though there was never really any such threats. Heck we US knew the Russians were helping the north Koreans by flying Russian mig-15 jets which could have dominated American air force at the time when we were still using piston powered engines. We were losing moral in the Korean peninsula and withdrew our troops to save face, we never had a chance to win without declaring actual war against North Korea when they knew Russian soldiers were firing against American GIs and fighting another proxy war where we gained no distinctive advantage just like Vietnam conflict.

 

[ORCUS DEMENS]

Lunk, if you look at the timeline of how the country ramped up for production of the atomic bombs in Idaho, Tennessee, and Los Alamos, I would venture the Russians slipped through the cracks. There was a good book written about the creation of the Los Alamos labs. The title was the address of the office where future workers were transferred to the secret facility. Had to look it up, 109 East Palace, excellent read.