One tag system

[Davey Crockett]

Davey, under your no dog in this fight push for a 1 tag system, there still aren't enough tags for every td&h to hunt their home/desired unit, you've solved nothing (what, they're waiting 5 years now instead of 6?) but you've crushed interest in archery, muzzloading, and even some rifling (as they've now moved exclusively bow/muzz).

it's not good for team outdoorsman. it's not good for recruitment.

the numbers don't lie and a one tag system definitely hurts more than it helps.

more deer will die in a 1 tag system as well. g&f is always going to sell xyz amount of tags but with some people 'only' having one, it'll motivate them far more to fill it.

one example/scenario are people who fill their rifle tag then suddenly lose their motivation to go out in the cold for muzz or bow since they already have their meat.

I'm not so sure I am pushing for anything just yet but taking a good look from all angles. As far as no dog, I have it made but I owe it to my Kids and Grandkids to pay attention to their future hunting on the family farm. Having spent my adult life doing what ever I could to produce habitat , Nothing would make me happier than to watch my Grandkids be able to carry on the traditional deer gun harvest. Due to travel distance and time restraints It has to be a one weekend event no matter what the outcome or it aint gonna happen . BUT that one weekend to them and me has just as much value as your season does to you. Some people simply can not get a day off work to go deer hunting so it's not so much that they DONT put in the time its that they cant. The least I can do is stay informed , That is what I am doing Nothing more-Nothing less.

 

[tman]

For those of you pushing for more acreage requirement for a gratis lets just say someone buys 160acres off prime deer habitat and pays big bucks for it and he isn't some rich doctor just some average Joe with a full time job like the rest of us just has a desire to deer hunt and help the deer herd out. Plants 50 acres total of food plots on it throughout the property and shoot one deer with his bow and occasionally fills his gratis. But he has helped the deer herd out by more than anyone can think by keeping habitat and not tearing everything up to be farmed and planting all them food plots on his own dime cause he gets no rent or no return from harvest because he leaves it for the deer. And come winter has more deer living there than most have ever seen but doesn't hunt any because he doesn't want to put more stress on them than their already is that time of year. You can feel comfortable sitting there telling me he shouldn't be awarded a gratis tag when without him in a winter like last year 40 to 50 percent of them deer would of died? And just for the record no its not me but someday cause I have the same opportunity to be smart and safe my money and buy land as anyone else. Jealousy is what is killing this awesome sport he shot a nice one ore he shot 2 nice ones this year and I didn't get a tag That's not fair it makes me think more and more its not this generations fault for the participation awards. Sorry for the long rant and yes I am a bow hunter and also send in for rifle and muzzleloader too bit guess what never once have I ever got all 3 tags and probably once in every 10 years I actually take to nice bucks a lot of times I end up making tag soup with my bow tag or else I take a buck that looks like it has had a rough rut and is going to have a tough time making the winter. Only once have I taken 2 mature bucks in the same season.

 

[Davey Crockett]

Your example would make it seem pretty obvious that you could have had more people hunting

Ok, I understand that part .



however, in your poll we have 26% getting 2 tags. Do we know how many of those included a gratis tag as 1 of them? No we don't. Do we know how many might have been rifle and muzzeloader tags? No we don't. Do we know how many were bow and rifle combinations? No we don't. Do we know how many were Bow and Muzzleloader tags? No we don't.

We cannot assume that we have 20 to 26% of hunters have a bow tag and non gratis rifle tag.


But does it matter ? Everyone with two tags gives up one for someone that normally wouldn't get one.




I would imagine that since it is an unscientific poll - there could be shenanigans happening and the numbers are skewed.

I

 

[Davey Crockett]

What would happen if we just closed the season for lets say 2 or 3 years?

Don't even ..... It would be the end of NDA They would burn the bitch down again.

 

[You]

For those of you pushing for more acreage requirement for a gratis lets just say someone buys 160acres off prime deer habitat and pays big bucks for it and he isn't some rich doctor just some average Joe with a full time job like the rest of us just has a desire to deer hunt and help the deer herd out. Plants 50 acres total of food plots on it throughout the property and shoot one deer with his bow and occasionally fills his gratis. But he has helped the deer herd out by more than anyone can think by keeping habitat and not tearing everything up to be farmed and planting all them food plots on his own dime cause he gets no rent or no return from harvest because he leaves it for the deer. And come winter has more deer living there than most have ever seen but doesn't hunt any because he doesn't want to put more stress on them than their already is that time of year. You can feel comfortable sitting there telling me he shouldn't be awarded a gratis tag when without him in a winter like last year 40 to 50 percent of them deer would of died? And just for the record no its not me but someday cause I have the same opportunity to be smart and safe my money and buy land as anyone else. Jealousy is what is killing this awesome sport he shot a nice one ore he shot 2 nice ones this year and I didn't get a tag That's not fair it makes me think more and more its not this generations fault for the participation awards. Sorry for the long rant and yes I am a bow hunter and also send in for rifle and muzzleloader too bit guess what never once have I ever got all 3 tags and probably once in every 10 years I actually take to nice bucks a lot of times I end up making tag soup with my bow tag or else I take a buck that looks like it has had a rough rut and is going to have a tough time making the winter. Only once have I taken 2 mature bucks in the same season.

I don't believe they wrote the gratis rule to give-back to fenceless deer farmers.

Plus if he's just an "average Joe" we're basically saving him from himself by increasing the acreage requirement. Afterall he shouldn't be so foolish with his money paying "big bucks" for untillable land. Thumbs Up ::: ???

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I owe it to my Kids and Grandkids to pay attention to their future hunting on the family farm.

sounds like you have a dog in this fight

I

disallowing multiple tags wont translate into a 1 for 1 net gain for someone who wouldn't have otherwise hunted, as your now-slightly-bettered rifle drawing odds will certainly push some archers back to rifle for their 1 tag the same way the tag guarantee pushed them into bow hunting. another reality that comes with this is now with a rifle in hand they're statistically more likely to remove a deer from the landscape

 

[dust in the wind]

I

It may or may not matter. To me it does - your example may not be accurate in the % of multiple tags. I would be interested in seeing the numbers. I looked for them last night but couldn’t find them.

in your example those 20 people are choosing to not participate in the archery season for what ever reason when they could.

so instead you want to tell everyone else you can no longer purchase a bow tag or you can’t rifle hunt or you can’t muzzleloader hunt.
im sorry but those in that group of 20 that refuse to participate in a season they could but then whine and bitch to change it so others can’t enjoy it is well stupid.

So if that is changed (one that per person) and since it is still a lottery what if those people still have a tough time drawing tags then who is going to be the next group to go after?

why aren’t you addressing the issue that would help the most - getting a higher deer population?

 

[Kurtr]

I'm not so sure I am pushing for anything just yet but taking a good look from all angles. As far as no dog, I have it made but I owe it to my Kids and Grandkids to pay attention to their future hunting on the family farm. Having spent my adult life doing what ever I could to produce habitat , Nothing would make me happier than to watch my Grandkids be able to carry on the traditional deer gun harvest. Due to travel distance and time restraints It has to be a one weekend event no matter what the outcome or it aint gonna happen . BUT that one weekend to them and me has just as much value as your season does to you. Some people simply can not get a day off work to go deer hunting so it's not so much that they DONT put in the time its that they cant. The least I can do is stay informed , That is what I am doing Nothing more-Nothing less.

Why can't they get a day off of work to deer hunt? Did they just start a new job and don't have vacation? People have choices and most times it's not can't it's they choose they can't. Short of deployment for military folks I can't think of anyone you don't have a couple weeks of vacation.

 

[dust in the wind]

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disallowing multiple tags wont translate into a 1 for 1 net gain for someone who wouldn't have otherwise hunted, as your now-slightly-bettered rifle drawing odds will certainly push some archers back to rifle for their 1 tag the same way the tag guarantee pushed them into bow hunting. another reality that comes with this is now with a rifle in hand they're statistically more likely to remove a deer from the landscape

this is what they don’t get. If something like this were to come to be, i might just switch my primary rifle unit to where I live and still apply. If I don’t get one so be it - I could still buy an otc bow tag.

 

[luvcatchingbass]

Simple, I think we are killing sport by making harder to recruit and more importantly keep hunters. Who cares if you take a kid hunting for his youth season tag if he doesn't draw another tag for 5 years. He looses interest, and quits hunting. About half the buck tags in this state are removed as gratis tags before the drawing. Its hard enough to draw a tag without stacking the odds. Tons of people have quit hunting because they cant draw a tag. And you have to be honest... Opening day is not what it use to be. What happens when enough people loose interest? You do realize that hunters don't exactly have a majority anymore. Right now least most people are sympathetic to hunters because people they know hunt. What happens to deer hunting when that changes? Why make it harder on people?

I will hunt regardless if I draw a tag or not, most people will not. That is a problem....... Its only a matter of time before we loose our hunting rights to legislation if we don't keep people enough people interested.

Ok I can see a point there robin hood. What about sustainable habitat will that not help deer numbers?

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Even though I doubt tons have quite hunting. Heck a few years ago i heard people did want a tag because gas prices were too high. So of the people that no longer apply for tags how many do we think were road hunters or lazy, dishonest hunters. There may be a thining that was needed.

 

[Enslow]

That poll has so many questions... what an aweful survey.

 

[Obi-Wan]

this is what they don’t get. If something like this were to come to be, i might just switch my primary rifle unit to where I live and still apply. If I don’t get one so be it - I could still buy an otc bow tag.

That is the sweet deal the G&F was setting up for bow hunters as compensation for the change to a one tag system. If you don't draw you still can purchase a state wide bow tag.

 

[NDSportsman]

For those of you pushing for more acreage requirement for a gratis lets just say someone buys 160acres off prime deer habitat and pays big bucks for it and he isn't some rich doctor just some average Joe with a full time job like the rest of us just has a desire to deer hunt and help the deer herd out. Plants 50 acres total of food plots on it throughout the property and shoot one deer with his bow and occasionally fills his gratis. But he has helped the deer herd out by more than anyone can think by keeping habitat and not tearing everything up to be farmed and planting all them food plots on his own dime cause he gets no rent or no return from harvest because he leaves it for the deer. And come winter has more deer living there than most have ever seen but doesn't hunt any because he doesn't want to put more stress on them than their already is that time of year. You can feel comfortable sitting there telling me he shouldn't be awarded a gratis tag when without him in a winter like last year 40 to 50 percent of them deer would of died? And just for the record no its not me but someday cause I have the same opportunity to be smart and safe my money and buy land as anyone else. Jealousy is what is killing this awesome sport he shot a nice one ore he shot 2 nice ones this year and I didn't get a tag That's not fair it makes me think more and more its not this generations fault for the participation awards. Sorry for the long rant and yes I am a bow hunter and also send in for rifle and muzzleloader too bit guess what never once have I ever got all 3 tags and probably once in every 10 years I actually take to nice bucks a lot of times I end up making tag soup with my bow tag or else I take a buck that looks like it has had a rough rut and is going to have a tough time making the winter. Only once have I taken 2 mature bucks in the same season.

Maybe we should lower the requirement then because I know more then a few people who have similar situations with less then a 160 acres. I wonder how many tags would be a available to the average joe without any land then. How about the guy delivering propane or the school teacher teaching your kids? I guess they don't deserve the opportunity to get a tag since they don't own a 100 acres. Let's go ahead and turn ND into TX. I'm just trying to make people see the big picture. The gratis tag was never intended as just a way for someone who happens to own a quarter to get a guaranteed tag every year. Why is that so hard for people to understand? If it continues like it has been eventually every tag will be going to a landowner. Some units are already there.

 

[DirtyMike]

hypothetical situations....that's everyone's argument.

 

[dust in the wind]

That is the sweet deal the G&F was setting up for bow hunters as compensation for the change to a one tag system. If you don't draw you still can purchase a state wide bow tag.

and the problem is with those of us that hunt with family members that live in different parts of the state. My dad still enjoys hunting but he cannot get a deer back to the pickup by himself. So either he would have to travel hundreds of miles to hunt each time or I would. Or we would have to stay split up and he would probably end up no longer hunting.

He still enjoys bow hunting but usually only gets out when we go out west for one week of the season. Guess what that would end.
i am not the only one that falls into this situation and the proposed plan screws that all up.

I’m not the only one that likes to go west to bow hunt either. Their proposed plan screws that all up.

Again there many hunters that fall into these categories.

no matter how you run the numbers that plan will not increase your odds of getting that rifle tag significantly.

instead of thinking how it will benefit just rifle hunters you have to dig into how it affects all hunters.

 

[WormWiggler]

What does 160 acres of "prime deer land" cost? purchase price? taxes? developing and maintaining feed plots? Does Joe Six Pack have that much money? I suspect if you can make a "hunting quarter" like that, either you have had the land for quite awhile already, you are not Joe Six Pack but "Lawyer Larry", or it was inherited.

Seems like everyone wants the "system" tweaked or not tweaked to benefit themselves. People are greedy, every damn one of them.

Instead of tweaking the system, the G&F needs better info on deer populations and locations. I would love to see mandatory surveys but since people are greedy can the results be trusted? I know it would be prohibitally offensive, but a tag that has a way to "activate" and record time, date, and location when used.... would that help?

 

[FishinRN]

In my eyes this all boils down to opportunity. For those who state that available doe tags in far corners of the state translate into "equal opportunity" to participate I sadly disagree. Traveling in some instances 300 plus miles to an area with no personal or land contacts to stay in a hotel merely to be given opportunity to participate in a hunt is not the same. To state that anyone who plans accordingly can take time off work to pull off a hunt including travel is not accurate people have responsibilities both know and unforseen that can get in the way. Having the ability to sneak away even if for only an afternoon or day or two within a reasonable days drive is valuable. I know people, even some of whom I hunt with are able to benefit from the current gratis system without personally farming an acre themselves. Of these people some are stewards of the land doing as able to improve habitat while others are not. I am fortunate I myself may find my name titled on a quarter of land someday due to an estate. Those few who have financial resources to go out and buy a quarter with decent deer potential aren't exactly an average Joe and have above average means or extraordinarily driven. I don't feel the intent of the gratis tag was ever for weekend warriors with a little extra monies or the many with fortunate inheritance or trust to benefit, but rather those who make an actual living from the land which we all know today needs to exceed a quarter. I have drawn 1 riffle tag in last 5 years in whitetail only part of the state and been fortunate enough to fill it in the company of both family and friends. I have spent the remaining 4 bow hunting less than desirable minnesota area my family owns filling just one tag. I have spent considerable time on this property attempting to improve habitat primarily food without much to show for it. With current farming practices and corn commuting off this late in the year even the average bow hunter doesn't have a great deal of opportunity especially without baiting. In my eyes bow hunting is not much of a handicap, good land access and time and resources to bait within the legal right is just about as easy as using a gun under the right circumstances. I purchased my first ND archery tag is probably 10 years this year Sat a couple of times and did have an opportunity at a doe which I did not take and can't complain about given I was granted access to some nice area. The truth is that everyone is given an opportunity in this state to participate but it is certainly not the same for all. The system certainly favors those with more time/desire whichever you rather and those with earned/provided land resources not fiscally available to all. My concern going forward is not if I will deer hunt, because I have already found alternative opportunity to get me afield, but rather for my children to look forward to deer season the way I did as a kid able to get out to some capacity 10 plus days of the season. Pegging deer drivers vs stand hunters, spot and stalk, and road hunters isn't the answer. The most fond memories I have getting into the sport and to this day are not my first or biggest kill but rather riding along when I wasn't even old enough to walk through the snow in the ditch. It is opportunity that is being lost here whether it is "fair" to one or all or not.

 

[dust in the wind]

Seems like everyone wants the "system" tweaked or not tweaked to benefit themselves. People are greedy, every damn one of them.

Do I think there could be improvements on the lottery itself - Yes I do think so. These were brought up to them as well. Nothing has come from it though and even they (G&F) seemed to think they were good ideas.

Instead of tweaking the system, the G&F needs better info on deer populations and locations. I would love to see mandatory surveys but since people are greedy can the results be trusted? I know it would be prohibitally offensive, but a tag that has a way to "activate" and record time, date, and location when used.... would that help?

Yes! there needs to be something in place and preferably before changes are made. Paper surveys are not the best way to do it - way to easy fudge the numbers. Something that can be verified. What that is yet, I do not know.

 

[Stan's Dad]

I bet Matt Lauer was the one that gave Bob Costas pink eye

 

[KJS - ND]

Yep, it would add tags into the lottery - I overlooked that. So lets run with that idea with your numbers.

54000 tags
105000 applicants

51.5% of applicants getting a tag.

64000 tags (10,000 more tags)
95000 applicants (10,000 fewer applicants)

67% applicants get tags - this sounds great on an overall basis.

This still only amounts to approximately a .39% increase in odds avg in each unit. This is still not a drastic improvement in odds in getting tag. You might shave 1 year off of a 4 year wait.

I don't know much, but I don't believe your math can possibly be correct - you can't take the (67-51.5)/39 and get the increase in odds average for each unit - math don't work that way.

10,000 extra tags and less applicants would be 256 per unit - assuming evenly distributed and 1/2 bucks and 1/2 does.

I'll look at two units I have hunted which are quite difficult to draw whitetail buck tags and use 2016 numbers. https://gf.nd.gov/licensing/availability/deer/stats

2J1 - 517 buck licenses available after gratis and 1557 applications received would be 33.2% success rate.
645 (517+128) available after gratis and 1429 (1557-128) applications would be a 45.1% success rate.
Increase of 11.9%.

3A3 - 344 buck licenses available after gratis and 2089 applications received would be a 16.4% success rate.
472 buck licenses available after gratis and 1961 applications received would be a 24.1% success rate.
Increase of 7.7%.

What those increases mean to how long it takes to draw a tag - I have no idea - guessing not much. Don't really care, but hopefully this is more accurate? Someone will probably immediately show me how I made a calculation error and hopefully it won't get back to my high school math teacher .

 

[dust in the wind]

Yep, it would add tags into the lottery - I overlooked that. So lets run with that idea with your numbers.

54000 tags
105000 applicants

51.5% of applicants getting a tag.

64000 tags (10,000 more tags)
95000 applicants (10,000 fewer applicants)

67% applicants get tags - this sounds great on an overall basis.

This still only amounts to approximately a .39% increase in odds avg in each unit. This is still not a drastic improvement in odds in getting tag. You might shave 1 year off of a 4 year wait.

I don't know much, but I don't believe your math can possibly be correct - you can't take the (67-51.5)/39 and get the increase in odds average for each unit - math don't work that way.

10,000 extra tags and less applicants would be 256 per unit - assuming evenly distributed and 1/2 bucks and 1/2 does.

I'll look at two units I have hunted which are quite difficult to draw whitetail buck tags and use 2016 numbers. https://gf.nd.gov/licensing/availability/deer/stats

2J1 - 517 buck licenses available after gratis and 1557 applications received would be 33.2% success rate.
645 (517+128) available after gratis and 1429 (1557-128) applications would be a 45.1% success rate.
Increase of 11.9%.

3A3 - 344 buck licenses available after gratis and 2089 applications received would be a 16.4% success rate.
472 buck licenses available after gratis and 1961 applications received would be a 24.1% success rate.
Increase of 7.7%.

What those increases mean to how long it takes to draw a tag - I have no idea - guessing not much. Don't really care, but hopefully this is more accurate? Someone will probably immediately show me how I made a calculation error and hopefully it won't get back to my high school math teacher .

Then your math isn't correct either. I was just dividing up the extra amount all units equally. I noted in a previous post that some units will be higher and some will be lower.

Your math is assuming you can equally divide the tags up evenly among the units which isn't necessarily true either. Each unit would have to have a different number of increased tags not an even gain across the board. Same with my example, it can't be an even gain across all units but we have no way of knowing how many of the statewide bow tags can be allocated to each unit.

Not trying to start an argument.