National Grasslands

[Fritz the Cat]

Radical? Things published by the American Land Council, the Farm Bureau, and all that bs you posted about the Oregon standoff. You know, the one that if we didn't help we would be standing some alone at the end of our driveway one day. The one where the "would be cop killer" was shot.

So back on subject, burning isn't all bad. Get back a mile and set some backfires. No need for roads.

Typical Plainsman always trying to embed a message. That kind of accusation should not be said.

In other news a baler caught fire south of Beulah and the wind carried it towards town. It stopped at the Knife river. But not before the fire went up some large poles and temporarily knocked out the Coyote Generating Station.

 

[gst]

Holy Hell, this rabbit hole is deep

May as well touch em all, baiting and HFH still to come..........

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Typical Plainsman always trying to embed a message. That kind of accusation should not be said.
.

Old plains is taking up more and more of the liberal handbook these days.

 

[Allen]

I don't know, gst. This is kind of damning of Finicum's actions. Unless you think it's a good idea to run from the law and pack heat when dealing with the gov't. Personally, I don't think it's a healthy choice.


Astarita is accused of firing twice at Finicum as Finicum emerged from his white Dodge truck after swerving into a snowbank to avoid a roadblock on U.S. 395 in Harney County. Finicum had just sped away from state police and FBI agents who stopped occupation leaders traveling in a two-car convoy earlier on the highway. He nearly struck another FBI agent when he crashed at the roadblock, police said.
Astarita's bullets didn't hit Finicum, 54. The sheriff's investigators concluded that Astarita fired twice at the truck, hitting it in the roof and missing on the second shot.
Seconds later, state troopers shot Finicum three times after he stepped away from his pickup and reached for his inner jacket pocket, where police said he had a loaded 9mm handgun. Bullets struck him in the back and one pierced his heart, an autopsy found.

 

[PrairieGhost]

The FIB guilty or innocent is a side show to take the attention away from the rancher/would be cop killer. Let's face it that is a correct description.

 

[Stan's Dad]

The FIB guilty or innocent is a side show to take the attention away from the rancher/would be cop killer. Let's face it that is a correct description.

what did i tell you about talking?

 

[Fritz the Cat]

I don't know, gst. This is kind of damning of Finicum's actions. Unless you think it's a good idea to run from the law and pack heat when dealing with the gov't. Personally, I don't think it's a healthy choice.

Finicum said he didn't want to ever rot in jail. Ammon Bundy never once had a gun and now he rots in jail.

The FBI Hostage Rescue Team is from Virginia. The unit's motto is "Servare Vitas" — Latin for "To Save Lives."

They have been cheered for arresting of pirate leader Mohammad Saaili Shibin in Somalia to catching Boston Bomber Dzhorkhar Tsarnaev. And they have been jeered for being at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

 

[PrairieGhost]

So that's an excuse to kill someone? Wow.

 

[lunkerslayer]

what did i tell you about talking?

Don't you have better things to do then troll for thumbs up

 

[Fly Carpin]

.

 

[gst]

I don't know, gst. This is kind of damning of Finicum's actions. Unless you think it's a good idea to run from the law and pack heat when dealing with the gov't. Personally, I don't think it's a healthy choice.


Astarita is accused of firing twice at Finicum as Finicum emerged from his white Dodge truck after swerving into a snowbank to avoid a roadblock on U.S. 395 in Harney County. Finicum had just sped away from state police and FBI agents who stopped occupation leaders traveling in a two-car convoy earlier on the highway. He nearly struck another FBI agent when he crashed at the roadblock, police said.
Astarita's bullets didn't hit Finicum, 54. The sheriff's investigators concluded that Astarita fired twice at the truck, hitting it in the roof and missing on the second shot.
Seconds later, state troopers shot Finicum three times after he stepped away from his pickup and reached for his inner jacket pocket, where police said he had a loaded 9mm handgun. Bullets struck him in the back and one pierced his heart, an autopsy found.

Allen, I have no idea how familiar you are with this case, if you go back and read all the 109 pages.....I have no idea how many there were..........of the armed protest thread, I posted on there that once Finnicum took off from the first "road block" that just coincedentally allowed people they had dozens of FBI agents and OSP officers to arrest in multiple vehicles an escape avenue to flee......it was a done deal. That act alone of fleeing gave LE the right to fire upon the vehicle using deadly force.

Even though the FBI and LE KNEW there were two women in the vehicle, one an 18 year old girl whos only reason for being along was to sing gospel songs at a meeting, the OSP had the legal authority to fire into the vehicle. And they did in fact fire several rounds into it as it approached the second road block.

The questions arise from the testimonies given by OSP regarding the FBI actions (whi were in charge) of where and how the second road block was knowingly set up around a blind curve where it could not be seen until it was too late to stop (think deadly threat here ) , spike strip placement only a few yards away from the road block vehicles where they did nothing to slow the oncoming vehicle at a distance it would not be a "deadly threat". ,,,,,, to firing several "9 banger" gun fire simulators as the occupants sat in the vehicle....to firing rounds at a man who in video evidence who was raising his hands ABOVE his head when the FBI fired.........to lying about firing........to removing shell casings tampering with evidence and lying about removing the casings to LE......to the prior investigations for misconduct the special agent in charge of this case Greg Brezing was under ......to the correspondence from the Gov of Oregon to the FBI and the Obama administration seeking a end one way or another to the stand off...........

Just as you and I have responsibilities when dealing with LE and must be accountable for our actions.........so must the FBI and law enforcement.

I have not gone thru law enforcement training, but I would bet a steak supper there is a portion of it on de escalating bad situations which one if looking at this from an informed position would argue the FBI did the opposite of.

Either this elite Hostage Rescue Team from the FBI were grossly inept in de escalating things or these actions were designed for an end purpose.

An elite trained FBIU sniper shooting from a stationary elevated platform misses his target....at least twice (three rounds were fired..where was the third round fired??? OSP officers were in the line of fire on the far side of the vehicle.......??

OSP officers testified under oath an FBI agent they were paired with pulled up to the road block got out and shouted "he;s firing, he;s firing" suggesting Finnicum was firing a weapon.

It is my theory that the govt under Obama and company (the Oregon gov. is notoriously anti 2nd amendment) after the Bundy stand off wanted to make an example of those that would embrace the 2nd amendment and stand in opposition to the govt and that is what they did. If you follow how the Bundys are being handled from a legal stand point there are a number of questions that can be raised.

I posed one to plainsman regarding why this FBI agent that "allegedly" fired on a man with his hands raised was kept on active duty and now walking free on bail while the Bundys who fired on no one and threatend no one with a fire arm sit in prison without bail and significant restrictions.

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There was a fair bit of information that came out at the Oregon trial where the Bundys were aquitted that sheds some light on the mentality behind the FBI agents in this case.

People like plains tried painting the picture that these occupiers were bloodthirsty gun slingers.......yet the majority of people there were FBI infiltrators including those that were pushing armed resistance and fire arms "training"

This is the special agent that was placed in charge.

https://shastalantern.net/2016/02/o...deaths-in-2009-indian-artifact-investigation/

He is now "retiring" from the FBI................amazing timing......

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/11/oregons_top_fbi_agent_greg_bre.html

My guess here is he was directed to "handle" the Oregon situation to regain favor within the FBI and is now being allowed to "retire" with full benefits and recognition.

But hey maybe that is not how things work..............

 

[Fritz the Cat]

So that's an excuse to kill someone? Wow.

I guess I'm not following what you are trying to convey. Please explain.

 

[gst]

The FIB guilty or innocent is a side show to take the attention away from the rancher/would be cop killer. Let's face it that is a correct description.

Plainsman how do you know that Finnicum was not getting out of the pickup raising his hands in compliance when he was fired on?

If he was going ot kill a cop as you claim, would it not been much smarter to draw his weapon under cover of the vehicle before he got out?

If you were complying with LE raising your hands above your head and you were fired upon twice, possibly three times with one round striking the vehicle you exited inches from your head what would you begin to think?

Is that the way you were trained to de escalate a situation in your law enforcement training plains?

Did firing live rounds at Finnicum put the life of the OSP officer that was approaching him with a tazer possibly trying to actually de escalte the situation without deadly force in danger?

Remember the FBI shots according to testimonies and video evidnece came from the opposite side of the vehicle from the approaching OSP officers. Where did the third shot fired go plains?

The FBI according to testimonies was in charge of placing the OSP officers. Should they (FBI) have known OSP would be approaching out of the tree line in a cross fire situation?

If an OSP officer had a live round strike close by while hearing an FBI agent shouting "he's firing, he;s firing" as nine banger gunfire simulators were going off as was testified to, what would that LE likely think? How would he respond?

Remember this is an "elite" Hostage Rescue Team that is highly trained.

Can you explain why the FBI would not have set up the spike strips ot disable the vehicle at a distance far enough away the snipers could have rendered armed resistance terminal not putting the life of OSP officers at risk? ?

Remember, they had time to have elevated platforms set up and waiting. They had blocked off traffic down the roads.

What would be a "correct description" of the FBI actions here plains?

 

[PrairieGhost]

Armchair SWAT commander GST.

 

[gst]

plains given your experience in law enforcement that you drag into these discussions and given your eagerness to make accusations regarding this case I simply thought maybe you would want to answer some simple questions................


You may not find them relevant but perhaps others reading them do.


Here is another question to consider. Given the degree of training and professionalism of the FBI HRT team and the fact this member was shooting from an elevated stationary platform, the questions arises.

Is it realistic to think if the intent was to use deadly force to take out the driver or occupants believed to be showing threatening behavior in the stationary pick up, that such a well trained individual would miss three times from a relatively short distance?

If that was not the intent of firing three shots, what was?

I mean if I was one of the OSP officers in the line of fire that was being protected by a well trained sniper whose shots all hit an individual making a deadly threat towards me, I could understand and appreciate live rounds being fired in my direction.

But when all three shots fired by a highly trained FBI HRT sniper apparently missed their mark (if Finnicum was the target, or even if the large white stationary pickup was the target two rounds still missed) I as a law enforcement officer would have to wonder why those rounds were fired in my direction.

Especially when the FBI guy lied about firing them and tried to cover it up by removing evidence ie shell casings.

As highly trained as the HRT members are, they know there would be an shooting incident review team investigating those rounds fired.

They know questions such as the ones asked here would likely be asked.

So if there was nothing to hide..............why lie to fellow law enforcement officers and tamper with evidence (both crimes that could send them to prison if caught) ???

If you care to answer plains it would be interesting for this "arm chair SWAT commander" to hear the response from a trained law enforcement person such as yourself.

 

[Stan's Dad]

hold up. pghost is in law enforcement?? this just keeps getting better.

 

[Allen]

"I have not gone thru law enforcement training, but I would bet a steak supper there is a portion of it on de escalating bad situations which one if looking at this from an informed position would argue the FBI did the opposite of."


Nor have I, but I am guessing that the next chapter covers the concept of what to do when shit starts getting out of hand. And the solution to that is to use overwhelming force so there is no Gordon Kahl type moment. There are two reasons that come to mind why a person (law enforcement in this example) use an abundance of force. 1. To make sure things come out in your favor so you can go home to your wife and kids afterwards. And 2. A reasonable person when faced with overwhelming force will choose to comply.

So we are left with the obvious conclusion that either A.) It wasn't overwhelming force at the onset, or B.) Finnicum simply wasn't a very reasonable person.

These are the same principles that guided us in the Marine Corps. We would be happy to have you surrender, but if you still choose to duke it out...we had absolutely zero intention of making it a "fair fight". Fair fights are for school yards where after the dust settles everyone still gets to go home. This is real life serious business here when the FBI (or U.S. Marine Corps) gets called in on your ass.

 

[gst]

If that is indeed the case allen, explain why a member of the most highly trained response team there missed all three shots?

Explain why one of his fellow FBI officers told OSP officers he was paired with Finnicum was shooting when he was not?

Explain why if that is acceptable protocal FBI agents would lie to law enforcement investigating and tamper with evidence by removing shell casings?

Had the FBI sniper hit Finnicum in the head dropping him it would have been ruled justifiable force after the pickup fled the first stop in which an avenue of escape was left wide open as well as after becoming a "dealy threat" upon driving at the road block.

Had the FBI sniper just missed his shot and admitted missing his shot instead of lying to investigators and removing evidence there would be no investigation nor criminal charges.

In this particular situation the FBI knew where they were headed (they blocked off the road ahead of them in advance).

So why not set up a road block where it could be seen to facilitate a stop, have other law enforcement that was following set up a road block behind and stand off and wait for the occupants to surrender or indicate they would not whereby FBI snipers could deal with it without placing LE in danger?

Instead the stopped the pickup in a "routine traffic stop" (okay) in a manner it was allowed to drive off which instantly turned it into the ability to use deadly force.

The other road block already put in place was done behind a blind curve where the oncoming vehicle could not see it in time to stop (once again becoming "deadly threat" (look in the video as soon as Finnicum sees the road block the brake lights come on and he swerves to AVOID hitting a LE)

Spike strips are set I beleive it was about 20 yards away from the road block according to LE testimonies.....(what good does that do to stop an oncoming vehicle before it becomes a "deadly threat")

Gunfire simulators called nine bangers were deployed by the FBI according to testimonies by LE

An FBI agent paired with law enforcement shouted "he shooting, he;s shooting" as testified to by LE.

3 rounds, all missing their target, were fired in the direction of oncoming LE.

the FBI agents involved lied to law enforcement.

The FBI agents involved tampered with evidence to cover up their actions they lied about.

The FBI originally claimed there was only one video that existed, we now know there were others (one of which shows the FBI rounds being fired) yet only two have ever been released.

Indeed Finnicum LEGALLY sealed his fate when he drove away from the first stop...........the question is was that the intent of the FBI?

Was this really a "routine traffic stop" (as reported by the FBI spokesperson on the press conference) by a cluster f#%k of amateurs or was it "highly trained" FBI team seeking a orchestrated result to end the stand off as the Gov of Oregon Kate Brown (a notorius anti gun/2nd amendment foe) requested directly to AG Lorretta Lynch and Obama (both anti gun/2nd amendment foes) in letters.

I am a huge supporter of law enforcement coming home to their families at night, I have a couple LEs that are friends. But what has to be remembered here is this is not the Marines in Afghanistan.

Rules of law and rules of war are two different things.

It is my opinion that we do not want our law enforcement to start following rules of war when they implement our rules of law domestically on US civilians.

History shows us where that ends.

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plainsman keeps wanting ot try and make this about ranchers and cows to fit his narrative but it is not.

It is about our Constitution and whether our Federal govt is abiding by it.

The entire reason this group of people were at this refuge goes directly back to abuses by Federal agencies coveting a citizens private land and those two citizens ending up in jail because of it.

Whether it is the right calling for hard line military type responses to BLM protesters or the left calling for hard line military type responses to the refuge protesters, neither end well for this nation remaining a Constitutional Republic governed by a rule of law and my kids future.

 

[Allen]

gst,

I hate to point out the obvious here, but you are merely repeating yourself. Repetitiveness doesn't change the facts. When the law hits the lights and gives you an opportunity to surrender without harm, I suggest taking advantage of it.

I can't answer as to what was in any of the participant's heads any better than you. I do recognize that as soon as the law gives me a lawful order though that I am immediately at a disadvantage and any reason I give them to take a shot at me is my own fault. Period.

p.s. Rule of Law matters are settled in courts and legislative branches of the government, not at a roadblock on a highway, regardless of how strongly you feel you are in the right.

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p.s.s. Remember Bonnie and Clyde? Did the lawmen who gunned them down in a blatant ambush get in trouble for doing so? How did we get to be such a pussy nation where "stop, or I'll shoot" left the verbiage of law enforcement?

 

[gst]

It may not change the facts but some people on here still don;t buy them even after being repeated dozens of times.......

I don;t dispute the actions of driving away from a road block and telling cops you'll have to shoot me contributed significantly if not entirely to the end result.

I am not questioning what was in the minds of FBI agents, I am questioning what their actual actions lead to and what the intent of questionable at best actions from "highly trained" teams was suppose to lead to.

Would you mind answering a couple questions? And please be forewarned they may be yet another repetition. Thanks in advance.

1. Since you brought up how the Marines were trained to handle things do you think civilian law enforcement should respond to civilian actions in the same manner the Marines are taught to respond to an enemy at war? ie marshall law

2. Do you think deploying simulated gun fire devices in a tense situation along with a FBI agent shouting "he's shooting, he's shooting" when NO ONE in the vehicle had yet even drawn a weapon is an appropriate response?

3. Do you honestly believe a highly trained FBI sniper shooting from a stationary elevated platform would miss a target less than 150 yards away 3 times?

4. If the shots fired were not meant to render a threat none threatening, what were they meant to do?

5. Why would a law enforcement officer in the FBI lie to another County law enforcement officer about his actions?

6. Why would the FBI agents remove evidence to cover their actions?

Comparing this to Bonnie and Clyde causes one more question.

The Barrows gang under Bonnie and Clydes leadership had killed 12 people in a well documented history of breaking the law with Clyde killing at least 6 of them if not more while Bonnie loaded the weapons and willfully contributed to these peoples demise. .

So the question is, how many people had LaVoy Finnicum or those riding with him including the 18 year old girl riding with to sing with her family killed?

Making that comparison is starting down the path plainmans jumps.

Do you really want to go there?

 

[Rowdie]

:;:deadhorse:;:deadhorse:;:deadhorse:;:deadhorse:;:deadhorse