Polluting ND

Fritz the Cat

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Just read Allen's long story about the lady who didn't feel safe as her reason to move. What about all the young people who moved away from Mott because there is no work?

The reality is people move to where the work is.
 


Allen

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All these same arguments were heard when Jimmy Carter announced the Dakota Gasification Plans 1978. The communities of Hazen and Beulah experienced growth pains and what if's. Senior classes had 45 students. Some people just wanted their little, small-town way of life.

During that same time, Mott ND senior class was 75 students. According to the last census, there only 738 people left in Mott.

Mott had a population of around 1,273 in 1980, and they had a senior class of 75? Wow, the pregnancy rate in 1962 must have been through the roof.

https://ia600805.us.archive.org/31/items/1980censusofpop8036unse/1980censusofpop8036unse.pdf

New Town had a population of around 1,300 in 1980...it had 30-some high school seniors.
 

guywhofishes

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A smelting company can make what $2 bil a year lets say. Average super fund sight is aroumd $300 million for a clean up lets say?....like i said it can be done if done correctly..not always the sky is falling...or I only like it if it works for me. By the way i would benefit exactly zero from this project. I am however pro business if done correctly.
Socialism should work too, if done correctly. This type of wishful thinking is just that.

It’s simply not going to happen because people are monkeys full of snakes. And around 2% of us WILL, without exception, screw their neighbors for a dollar.

Guess what those 2% are good at and now do for a living? They’re attorneys, executives, and politicians. Not all of them, but those sociopathic 2% almost always end up having enough to do with the process that what should happen, won’t. Even if it only costs a relatively small percentage of the profits.
 

Obi-Wan

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Long time..isnt it still going? Cost mandan alot of money from my understanding...pretty sure the cost was due to some great decision makers they had no?
Didn't BNSF pay for the remediation ?
 

Maddog

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One step closer to the end.
it is all about the monkey

1760627458824.png
 


Allen

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Just read Allen's long story about the lady who didn't feel safe as her reason to move. What about all the young people who moved away from Mott because there is no work?

The reality is people move to where the work is.
I am just guessing here, but pretty much every town within a reasonable commute of Minot is population stable to increasing, much like Minot.


Didn't BNSF pay for the remediation ?

So far as I know, BNSF did foot the bill for the cleanup of Mandan. BNSF though is still financially solvent and still in business as it has a very large footprint nationally. That's a bit different than a one-location outfit that is being discussed here. Near as I can tell, North American Iron would have this one site, so when it's no longer profitable...you just declare bankruptcy and bail.
 

Obi-Wan

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I don't think anyone here is saying it can't be done in a way to minimize our exposure to a very large cleanup bill in the future, we're just saying that history would suggest our elected officials don't care about the long-term because they are going to be out of office by then. There's a pretty solid track record to work with here. One doesn't need to look back any farther than the Bakken Boom. Let's issue an unlimited number of drilling permits, overwhelm western ND's infrastructure with truck drivers who couldn't stay employed in their own states, and in general just toss a monkey wrench into everything people loved about western ND. I can't even begin to count the number of native North Dakotans I've met/known who fled their homes out in the Bakken because of the circus it became.

Quick example of what I'm talking about. Back in 2012, I was selling a home up north of Bismarck as I was moving to my current home. I literally hit enter on the BisManOnline ad, packaged up a phone going in for warranty work, and met the first couple interested in looking at the house as I walked to the mailbox. That couple was from Golden Valley county, mid to late 50s and here is what the wife told me about why she was moving to Bismarck. She and her husband were both originally from western ND, owned a farm/ranch operation for years out there, raised their kids who were now on their own (at least one in the Bismarck area). Anyway, their shithead neighbor installed a man camp right across the road from their rural driveway as the Bakken was going nuts. One time too many as the husband was out in the field, she walked out into her frontyard only to find some random methheads sitting in her driveway and she just didn't feel safe out there with her husband out in the field every day. So, she eventually just came to the conclusion that she was moving to Bismarck to escape the shithole man camp next to her house (and to be near her daughter as a bonus). That couple ended up passing on our home, only because the lot wasn't setup well for building an external shop. Ended up selling the place to the couple that showed up a half hour later.

Bottom line, this was a person who had no intention of fleeing her longtime home, but because the state very poorly managed the economic boom of the Bakken, she no longer felt safe in rural Golden Valley county. Being originally from western ND myself, I have for years now been amazed at the number of life-long ND residents moving away from the place they expected to grow old and die in, all because some people placed "jobs" and economic development above the health and well-being of its current citizens.

All ND had to do to prevent the above crapping on its residents was have a little restraint on the number of drilling permits issued. And they refused to do it, all because they wanted the jobs/economic development. They could have drug the good years of the Bakken out for another decade or two, which would have provided great career-long employment opportunities for ND residents, instead they sold us out. This is why so many of us look at opportunities like this with a healthy dose of skepticism.
You can bet that when they sold their land for premium plus plus they kept the mineral rights. If they were farming and in their 50's their recent influx of cash most likely let them retire early. those that left the bakken did so for multiple reasons but many did so to take advantage of the premium plus plus plus they received for their property and moved east, bought a new home and pocketed the rest of the cash.
 

Fester

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A response to Allen and Guy..again with this scare mentality nothing would every be accomplished. With this mentality we should have nothing industrial. Power plants, water treatment plants, windmills, logging etc etc...to say wishfull thinking to make sure it is set up right? How many PSC meatings have anyone complaining gone to to make sure it is done right? I am pro business and not just when it benefits me. There are growing pains with any industry..the super fund sights going forward are less likely due to regulations. Not saying they cant and wont happen, again its all with planning it out. Not having confidence in elected officials? Well get new ones in...or run yourself. Not an excuse to squash growth. ALL problems and concerns can be solved with proper planning and correct implimentation.
 


Obi-Wan

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They setteled from my understanding....and from my understanding it didnt cover the cost....
From what I found BNSF paid 30 million with 24 million directly towards the remediation cost. the only number I can find is the final cost for remediation was around 24 million. Did the city pocket the other 6 million ?
 

Allen

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You can bet that when they sold their land for premium plus plus they kept the mineral rights. If they were farming and in their 50's their recent influx of cash most likely let them retire early. those that left the bakken did so for multiple reasons but many did so to take advantage of the premium plus plus plus they received for their property and moved east, bought a new home and pocketed the rest of the cash.

They had no intention of giving up farming and ranching. It was just the wife who was moving to Bismarck, he was going to stay on the farm and visit her in Bismarck on weekends, etc. For sure, people who left the small towns out in western ND received a Bakken premium on their homes, but most I know would have preferred to stay out west.
 

Fester

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From what I found BNSF paid 30 million with 24 million directly towards the remediation cost. the only number I can find is the final cost for remediation was around 24 million. Did the city pocket the other 6 million ?
The trust was $24 mil directly towards cleanup. I would guess the other $6 mil went to other costs associated with it. What was the actual cost of cleanup? From my understanding they are still pumping from some wells...very limited amount.
 
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Fester

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They had no intention of giving up farming and ranching. It was just the wife who was moving to Bismarck, he was going to stay on the farm and visit her in Bismarck on weekends, etc. For sure, people who left the small towns out in western ND received a Bakken premium on their homes, but most I know would have preferred to stay out west.
Well thats alot different then the ones i know. The farmers/ranchers i know retired they day they signed the dotted line and travel a good amount. A few have lake cabins out east
A few Arizona homes. It affects people differently...
 


tikkalover

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I'm not against this if as Fester says, its done RIGHT.

I laugh at when someone said that the city needs to monitor this.

Here are things off the top of my head that the "city" screwed the pooch on.

The 2 downtown parking garages.

Broadway Circle low-income housing project.

The big M building (partnered with EPIC Company)

Plus, I am sure there are other things, but you get the picture.

And the "make them clean it up if they leave/go bankrupt", how do you do that when these people that start these things just walk away and disappear off the face of the earth?
 

Fester

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I'm not against this if as Fester says, its done RIGHT.

I laugh at when someone said that the city needs to monitor this.

Here are things off the top of my head that the "city" screwed the pooch on.

The 2 downtown parking garages.

Broadway Circle low-income housing project.

The big M building (partnered with EPIC Company)

Plus, I am sure there are other things, but you get the picture.

And the "make them clean it up if they leave/go bankrupt", how do you do that when these people that start these things just walk away and disappear off the face of the earth?
I am not sure how its done...i am sure people smarter then me could figure it out. Example could they take x amount of profits until a trust fund is built that would cleanup if or when closed down withing lets say first 5 years? Just an example/thought. I am sure there is a way. It would need to be figured oit befire implimenting imo
 

wslayer

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I am not sure how its done...i am sure people smarter then me could figure it out. Example could they take x amount of profits until a trust fund is built that would cleanup if or when closed down withing lets say first 5 years? Just an example/thought. I am sure there is a way. It would need to be figured oit befire implimenting imo
Before implementing, when the f*ck does that ever happen in ND ?
$ $ $ $ $
AI build Harwood example.
 


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