Bis to lose boat ramp

[BrockW]

Hey man…. I’m 23-0 on conspiracy theories the last 5-7 years…..that being said I can agree I’d rather have money spent in the country. How it’s spent we can just agree to disagree. My issue is less with the research and studies as it is with the beaucratic overreach and regulation based of science with holes all over the place. Now we are even treading on private property rights. The problem lies with where they want this research to end up. There’s already a foregobe conclusion. Now to make the science dictate the outcome. That’s the problem. I trust zero out of any federal agencies and after the last 2 years of bs across local governments I question anything anymore. Where’s the line? Where does the government stop? They will continue to create a crisis to insert authority and continue to erode our rights and privileges. All at the expense of John Q taxpayer. CWD is no different.

Hey man, I can sympathize with ya a bit. Not hard to find some shady stuff “the government” has done. But those shady things are usually decided by high level folks thousands of miles away. Not the same as a Wisconsin big game biologist who was born in Fargo, ND and is running a research project collaring deer.

Honestly, I kind of feel bad for folks who think everything is a conspiracy and that somehow they’re free thinkers because of it. Living with that level of cynicism has to make a guy kind of sour and insufferable.

 

[Trip McNeely]

Hey man, I can sympathize with ya a bit. Not hard to find some shady stuff “the government” has done. But those shady things are usually decided by high level folks thousands of miles away. Not the same as a Wisconsin big game biologist who was born in Fargo, ND and is running a research project collaring deer.

Honestly, I kind of feel bad for folks who think everything is a conspiracy and that somehow they’re free thinkers because of it. Living with that level of cynicism has to make a guy kind of sour and insufferable.

Well I guess I’m reasonable enough to know not everything is a conspiracy. I’m also reasonable enough to know when something stinks like shit there’s a good chance it’s shit. And the entire CWD narrative stinks like shit about as bad as Covid did. Every politician, and do gooder these days has a cause, some embellished crusade they want to fight on the center stage to say they fought for a cause of some sort. Here’s the thing. We’re fucking broke. As a country, as a state, as a society. Stop spending our money like a bunch of idiots at happy hour on bullshit most of society doesn’t want. As stated above. Letting whatever you think this “epidemic” is run it’s course through the herd genetically will cost a lot less than this crusade some people in power are drunk on. If you would glance through the many threads on cwd here you’d understand the general consensus here is harsh winters, EHD and suitable habitat are the biggest threats to the deer herd in ND. Let’s put our money there instead.

 

[Fester]

Brock since you don’t want to answer how much cash you have put up, can you answer how much you want to take from the people?

 

[BrockW]

I’ve been practicing the scientific method for 35 yrs - the baiting ban is absolute HOGWASH

It wildly exaggerates the minuscule additional transfer risk due to baiting.

Deer “swap spit” every day all year long. CWD is simply going to have to genetically sort itself out. The deer that are resistant will eventually win out. And it will work itself out … if NDGF doesn’t go forth with retardedly culling the infected herds should the CWD prevalence hit their randomly chosen trigger threshold. Let the infections happen. The sooner it runs its course the better.

I watch deer quite a bit. I’ve never seen them making out or “swapping spit”….unless they’re eating at a bait pile or feeder.

Does it happen once in a while? I’m sure it does. Do they get exposed naturally? Sure. Will there be some natural spread? For sure.

But the research paints a pretty clear picture that deer aren’t likely getting infected based on a single contact with an infected deer, or by licking a branch an infected deer licked. It’s repeated and prolonged exposure to infected animals and infected sites(like baiting sites) that is resulting in positives.

They can infect deer with low doses of infected saliva, no Frankenstein inoculation, just taking saliva from an end stage positive animal and giving it to a naive animal. A couple months later that animal tests positive.

But, if they just throw naive, uninfected animals into infected pens or with other infected animals, it can take a year or more to start making other animals positive. Again, it’s that repeated and prolonged exposure that results in entire study groups becoming infected and subsequently dying of clinical end stage CWD.

This is why wildlife management agencies want to ban baiting, and in many cases feeding as well. Because when they run these studies, bringing infected animals into an area and have them eat out of the same feeder or out of the same bait pile, and repeatedly exposing them to infectious materials, it results in more positive animals. So why throw gas on the fire?

Besides, look at Saskatchewan, Kansas, Texas, basically the only 3 states/provinces that have not followed best management practices when it comes to baiting, and over the same amount of time, all 3 have seen significantly more geographic spread and significantly higher prevalence rates than states that have followed the best management practices.

Eventually, every state ends up with higher prevalence. But wouldn’t you rather have 40 years of a healthy deer herd, where most of the state is low in prevalence, versus 70-80% prevalence in 20 years and its exploding? That’s exactly what’s happened in Saskatchewan, and what’s happening in Kansas and Texas.

If you think this is all just made up hooey, then I can’t help you and good luck in whatever you do. No reason to continue the conversation.

But deer hunters should be taking this seriously and we should be doing what we can to help the department manage this disease as best we can. We should do it for the good of the resource, we should do it for future generations. Any reasonable and logical person should be able to look at the evidence and come to that conclusion. It’s not a coincidence that the folks mad about losing baiting are the ones up in arms about this, and claiming a new conspiracy theory every month. Those guys are reacting based on emotion and not reason, logic, or objective thinking. And hey, I’ve hunted over bait. I have absolutely zero against anyone who hunts over bait. Couldn’t care less.

This argument that baiting is a property right is straight up horseshit. Wildlife belong to North Dakota residents, all of us. That has been settled in federal courts time and time again. We all own the wildlife, and landowners who want to bait don’t get to just do whatever they want to the public’s wildlife because they own the land the wildlife are on. This has been settled in Supreme Court and is the law of the land. It’s what separates us from Europe. And who would say hunting is better in Europe than it is here?

No one, that’s who.

So yeah, put our big boy pants on and do the right thing. Damn straight.

 

[Trip McNeely]

You aren’t changing anyones minds here. What’s the average lifespan of a deer in ND? How long does it take to “clinically” succumb to CWD? I’m guessing those numbers make this entire thing a mute point don’t they?

 

[Trip McNeely]

And I’m going to continue feeding wildlife when I damn well please in my big boy pants

 

[BrockW]

You aren’t changing anyones minds here. What’s the average lifespan of a deer in ND? How long does it take to “clinically” succumb to CWD? I’m guessing those numbers make this entire thing a moot point don’t they?

Based on some research being done in Arkansas and Wisconsin, there are lots of deer making it to end stage CWD. Collared deer that are skin and bones dying from this disease and nothing else. Arkansas research shows 34% of positive deer are making it to end stage CWD and tipping over. That’s not counting any other cause of mortality.

It’s never a bad time to do the right thing. I might not change your mind, and that’s fine. But other folks will read this and this information needs to get out there. If you’re a lost cause, so be it.

 

[Fester]

Based on some research being done in Arkansas and Wisconsin, there are lots of deer making it to end stage CWD. Collared deer that are skin and bones dying from this disease and nothing else. Arkansas research shows 34% of positive deer are making it to end stage CWD and tipping over. That’s not counting any other cause of mortality.

It’s never a bad time to do the right thing. I might not change your mind, and that’s fine. But other folks will read this and this information needs to get out there. If you’re a lost cause, so be it.

What about the cost you want from the people for your boat ramp?

 

[Trip McNeely]

You literally didn’t answer any questions. I don’t care how long penned deer live. If it takes 7-10 years to reach final stage CWD and the average lifespan of ND is 4.5 years then that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to be dumping money into any of this.

 

[Trip McNeely]

Also have the deer in these studies been studied for any malnutrition?m throughout the study? Are they deficient in any mineral or nutrient that could cause onset of cwd? Are multiple uninflected deer given different diets or are they subject to the same feed and nutrients as infected deer? Does emancipation begin as a form of nutrient deficiency and cwd is the effect of such?

 

[zoops]

How does a thread about a boat ramp turn into a pissing match about CWD?

 

[guywhofishes]

But the research paints a pretty clear picture that deer aren’t likely getting infected based on a single contact with an infected deer, or by licking a branch an infected deer licked. It’s repeated and prolonged exposure to infected animals and infected sites(like baiting sites) that is resulting in positives.

They can infect deer with low doses of infected saliva, no Frankenstein inoculation, just taking saliva from an end stage positive animal and giving it to a naive animal. A couple months later that animal tests positive.

But, if they just throw naive, uninfected animals into infected pens or with other infected animals, it can take a year or more to start making other animals positive. Again, it’s that repeated and prolonged exposure that results in entire study groups becoming infected and subsequently dying of clinical end stage CWD.

This is why wildlife management agencies want to ban baiting, and in many cases feeding as well. Because when they run these studies, bringing infected animals into an area and have them eat out of the same feeder or out of the same bait pile, and repeatedly exposing them to infectious materials, it results in more positive animals. So why throw gas on the fire?

Besides, look at Saskatchewan, Kansas, Texas, basically the only 3 states/provinces that have not followed best management practices when it comes to baiting, and over the same amount of time, all 3 have seen significantly more geographic spread and significantly higher prevalence rates than states that have followed the best management practices.

Eventually, every state ends up with higher prevalence. But wouldn’t you rather have 40 years of a healthy deer herd, where most of the state is low in prevalence, versus 70-80% prevalence in 20 years and its exploding? That’s exactly what’s happened in Saskatchewan, and what’s happening in Kansas and Texas.

If you think this is all just made up hooey, then I can’t help you and good luck in whatever you do. No reason to continue the conversation.

But deer hunters should be taking this seriously and we should be doing what we can to help the department manage this disease as best we can. We should do it for the good of the resource, we should do it for future generations. Any reasonable and logical person should be able to look at the evidence and come to that conclusion. It’s not a coincidence that the folks mad about losing baiting are the ones up in arms about this, and claiming a new conspiracy theory every month. Those guys are reacting based on emotion and not reason, logic, or objective thinking. And hey, I’ve hunted over bait. I have absolutely zero against anyone who hunts over bait. Couldn’t care less.

This argument that baiting is a property right is straight up horseshit. Wildlife belong to North Dakota residents, all of us. That has been settled in federal courts time and time again. We all own the wildlife, and landowners who want to bait don’t get to just do whatever they want to the public’s wildlife because they own the land the wildlife are on. This has been settled in Supreme Court and is the law of the land. It’s what separates us from Europe. And who would say hunting is better in Europe than it is here?

No one, that’s who.

So yeah, put our big boy pants on and do the right thing. Damn straight.

How does a thread about a boat ramp turn into a pissing match about CWD?

Listen to the podcast brock posted a ways back in this thread. It contains a segment where they tell sportsman to just do what the law says and stop contesting.

 

[Trip McNeely]

How does a thread about a boat ramp turn into a pissing match about CWD?

Homie wanted to wrestle this sum bitch into the ditch so I obliged

 

[BrockW]

How does a thread about a boat ramp turn into a pissing match about CWD?

This is the internet!

 

[Chas'n Tail]

So who is going to lead the charge with their Cat loader and stand shoulder to shoulder with their fellow man, linking arms on the day they break ground on this new project to make Bismarck better? Or is this rant starting to take the form of a platform similar to Facebook where each keyboard warrior complains but nobody wants to actually put action before words?... Sorry, I'll fade back into the crowd now, just had to put in my .02

 

[guywhofishes]

1

I watch deer quite a bit. I’ve never seen them making out or “swapping spit”….unless they’re eating at a bait pile or feeder.

Does it happen once in a while? I’m sure it does. Do they get exposed naturally? Sure. Will there be some natural spread? For sure.

But the research paints a pretty clear picture that deer aren’t likely getting infected based on a single contact with an infected deer, or by licking a branch an infected deer licked. It’s repeated and prolonged exposure to infected animals and infected sites(like baiting sites) that is resulting in positives.

2

They can infect deer with low doses of infected saliva, no Frankenstein inoculation, just taking saliva from an end stage positive animal and giving it to a naive animal. A couple months later that animal tests positive.

But, if they just throw naive, uninfected animals into infected pens or with other infected animals, it can take a year or more to start making other animals positive. Again, it’s that repeated and prolonged exposure that results in entire study groups becoming infected and subsequently dying of clinical end stage CWD.

3

This is why wildlife management agencies want to ban baiting, and in many cases feeding as well. Because when they run these studies, bringing infected animals into an area and have them eat out of the same feeder or out of the same bait pile, and repeatedly exposing them to infectious materials, it results in more positive animals. So why throw gas on the fire?

4.

So yeah, put our big boy pants on and do the right thing. Damn straight.

1. I watch deer all year long on many (8) cameras. I used to have two bait stations. They actually don't exhibit this "licking tree" marker behavior at the bait pile because they're preoccupied with bait apparently. I see less swapping of biological material at bait than at marker trees, etc.

Deer don't move far on my property, I see the same deer repeatably visit/lick the same branches every time they wander around their small territory. This is what I meant by "swapping spit". A biologist might call it body fluid transfer? It happens just how you describe in bold... prolonged exposure in the same places over and over and over for months/years. Without bait.

Q: If they're doing it so often on their own, away from bait, how does bait factor into spreading CWD to any substantive degree?

2. If your bold statement in #2 is factual then why does NDGF plant food plots that congregate hundreds of deer for months in the same relatively small fields. And yes, anyone who's been to the Killdeer Wildlife Management Area can witness this first hand.

Please explain the blatant hypocrisy in NDGF's science based "no baiting to avoid congregating" concept. Hint: You can't. Nobody can. It makes no sense.

3. The bait ban would only make sense if deer were drooling, pissing, and crapping all over each other and on their food. That's NOT what one sees happening when you observe deer on bait. None of this makes any sense if you've spent time watching deer. They're not slobs - they're some of the most careful picky browsers in the kingdom.

Explain why NDGF engages in activities that bring deer within close proximity for months on end if it's making things worse. Why are hunter food plots legal and bait isn't? They both congregate deer.

4. You shouldn't describe bait bans as "doing the right thing" with so many unanswered questions and hypocrisy. You've cited zero evidence of bait ban's overall efficacy. You've only cited studies where they congregate deer or swap their spit and get transfer. That's very unrealistic. Show us rigorous studies of where the bait bans have been effective.

IMO, bait bans can never be demonstrated to be effective/necessary - because they make no sense when you look at what really goes on out there - vs pens.

The agencies "just had to do something".... JUST LIKE THE COVID DEBACLE.
_______________

This is my last CWD reply. Sorry for de-railing the thread - just so tired of the lack of scientific rigor being applied to determining various policies - and tired of those people of influence that support the implementation of ridiculous regulations just because it helps curry favor with the agencies for other items on their agenda.

I get it - you folks have to be very good politicians to work with these folks. I'm just not wired that way - obviously. I do admire your ability to somehow look past the sheer BS involved and try to effect change on their playing field. I just can't imagine it. I'd be a raging alcoholic in no time.

Ah never mind - I forgot that I'm dealing with an influential and entrenched advocate of the bait ban and someone who actively lobbied to derail a solution to this nonsense.

https://ndlegis.gov/assembly/68-2023/testimony/SNATRES-1151-20230316-25432-A-WAHL_BROCK.pdf

 

[Fester]

Notice how Brock doesn't want to put any financial information out there?????? The silence speaks LOUDLY! I want all your money for my pet projects but we don't want to talk about costs.

 

[guywhofishes]

So who is going to lead the charge with their Cat loader and stand shoulder to shoulder with their fellow man, linking arms on the day they break ground on this new project to make Bismarck better? Or is this rant starting to take the form of a platform similar to Facebook where each keyboard warrior complains but nobody wants to actually put action before words?... Sorry, I'll fade back into the crowd now, just had to put in my .02

Great point.
Let's face it - the other side has way more enthusiasm and "smarts" when it comes to getting things like this project done than somebody who loves boating/fishing (and probably camping, hunting, etc).

It's really hard to compete with people whose sole thrill in life is to network, do business deals, invest their gains using partial public funding, and come up with stuff like this project. They couldn't give two poops how these projects affect other's hobbies / interests. It's not on their radar and we shouldn't expect it to be.

It's like the social justice warriors. It seems like all they think about, it's their passion. They lay in bed consumed with their passion - just like we lay in bed wondering about tomorrow's fishing outing.

How does your typical balanced person compete with the mania with which they pursue their goals???

 

[guywhofishes]

 

[BrockW]

https://ndlegis.gov/assembly/68-2023/testimony/SNATRES-1151-20230316-25432-A-WAHL_BROCK.pdf

Thanks for saving me time and posting that up! Much appreciated.

Yes, we will lobby to kill another similar baiting bill when it comes back in the 2025 session.

Great point.
Let's face it - the other side has way more enthusiasm and "smarts" when it comes to getting things like this project done than somebody who loves boating/fishing (and probably camping, hunting, etc).

It's really hard to compete with people whose sole thrill in life is to network, do business deals, invest their gains using partial public funding, and come up with stuff like this project. They couldn't give two poops how these projects affect other's hobbies / interests. It's not on their radar and we shouldn't expect it to be.

It's like the social justice warriors. It seems like all they think about, it's their passion. They lay in bed consumed with their passion - just like we lay in bed wondering about tomorrow's fishing outing.

How does your typical balanced person compete with the mania with which they pursue their goals???

I disagree. Those folks have less enthusiasm than folks like you and many others on this forum. Enthusiasm and passion is the one thing the hunting and angling community has in spades.

The problem is that this crowd tends to sit on forums like this, pissing and moaning, peddling conspiracy theories, and performing mental gymnastics to try and justify selfish interests (baiting for example).

The folks you talk about aren’t here. They’re out there working and communicating. Having conversations and advocating for what they want. The Fort Abraham Lincoln Foundation doesn’t have any malicious intent. They aren’t trying to stick it to hunters and anglers. I know, because instead of complaining on here or FB, I went and got a meeting with them and other project stakeholders. There was grant money available to fund a project that got approved by the city and that was supported by the community. So they pursued that project. That grant money was going to get spent anyway. That’s what it’s there for.

I intend to do the same thing. Use grant money that’s going to get spent anyway. Might as well make sure it gets spent on something that benefits hunters and anglers.