Tax dollars being put to good use.

[guywhofishes]

that's right - I don't think it's worth the cost - I sure hope that's OK with you that I have an opinion that crossings aren't needed in Fairfield and Grassy Butte - you sure seem touchy about it

there are plenty of options - I'm just not buying into the binary choice you're giving me

how many big horn sheep have been killed by the way?

natural funnel areas aren't new. Deer crossing collisions are about as old as the automobile. You could also drop speed limits and have lots of high visibility warning signs in natural pinch points - among a number of other options

all of a sudden are we now entertaining the thought of $7million dollar crossings as if that's chump change?

 

[Ericb]

They made a overpass just up the road from my mom's in AZ. Seemed like a dumb idea at first but supposedly it's worked well. This is a 6 lane rd. That probably seems way more traffic than any rd in Nd. https://www.sonorandesert.org/learning-more/wildlife-linkages-2/oracle-road-wildlife-crossings-2/oracle-road-wildlife-crossings-the-results/

 

[ItemB]

If it's saves a human life from preventing a collision its worth it. How about making a mile stretch reduced speeds of 45 mph? I mean there are animals getting hit all over along the highways, train tracks are real bad. My thoughts is make habitat improvements with this money, to hold help create more animals. But again it's not about just saving the animals big safety factory in play.

 

[raider]

i think what guy may be referencing is the amount of money being spent on these projects, and i agree... 7 million??? for a culvert and a fence???

only govt spends millions per rest area or bike path or mural, tens of millions per parking lot, school, or office building, and hundreds of millions studying things we cannot change anyway... i'll stop there...

 

[eyexer]

that's right - I don't think it's worth the cost - I sure hope that's OK with you that I have an opinion that crossings aren't needed in Fairfield and Grassy Butte - you sure seem touchy about it

there are plenty of options - I'm just not buying into the binary choice you're giving me

how many big horn sheep have been killed by the way?

natural funnel areas aren't new. Deer crossing collisions are about as old as the automobile. You could also drop speed limits and have lots of high visibility warning signs in natural pinch points - among a number of other options

all of a sudden are we now entertaining the thought of $7million dollar crossings as if that's chump change?

I don't know how many big horns have been ran into but there was one particular incident in the north unit where a truck hit four or six in one shot and killed em all. All bulls I understand. That sucked. But yea I don't know if it requires spending that much money.

 

[dean nelson]

that's right - I don't think it's worth the cost - I sure hope that's OK with you that I have an opinion that crossings aren't needed in Fairfield and Grassy Butte - you sure seem touchy about it

there are plenty of options - I'm just not buying into the binary choice you're giving me

how many big horn sheep have been killed by the way?

natural funnel areas aren't new. Deer crossing collisions are about as old as the automobile. You could also drop speed limits and have lots of high visibility warning signs in natural pinch points - among a number of other options

all of a sudden are we now entertaining the thought of $7million dollar crossings as if that's chump change?

Yeah but you're skipping over the fact that antelope don't do fences. Because of that they have the nasty habit of getting through one fence and then getting stuck basically on the road and getting run down by a semi. If you look at it for ma monetary perspective this is a pretty cheap way to fix a problem that would be far more expensive to fix in any other way. this is especially true if they start doing it down by the interstate because the interstate is almost uncrossable for antelope which in turn leads to high levels of starvation for the antelope to the north.

 

[raider]

Yeah but you're skipping over the fact that antelope don't do fences. Because of that they have the nasty habit of getting through one fence and then getting stuck basically on the road and getting run down by a semi. If you look at it for ma monetary perspective this is a pretty cheap way to fix a problem that would be far more expensive to fix in any other way. this is especially true if they start doing it down by the interstate because the interstate is almost uncrossable for antelope which in turn leads to high levels of starvation for the antelope to the north.

off topic goat story...

bout 20 years ago i was in se wyoming doing sales calls... came from the north into elk mountain wy, and bout 3 miles north of town went through a low spot with freshly covered trenches on both sides of the road and a horrible stench... stopped in a store in town and was talking to a local and the trenches and smell came up... a trucker had come through there a week b4, hit the low spot in heavy fog and killed bout 150 goats standing on the road... they dug trenches with a hoe and pushed the animals in and covered them up... stunk for 2 years after that...

sorry - carry on...

 

[guywhofishes]

antelope do fences just fine - observed it a hundred times bowhunting them a lot in college (DSU)

the only time they don’t is when they’re pushed/stressed (being chased)

whatever - seems most people support the crossings - carry on

 

[Allen]

Something like this should be a prime candidate for that excess oil money we wanted set aside for outdoorsy things. It's not like those extra oil trucks didn't come with a direct cost to wildlife's lives. These crossings (and bridges) work, science and the occasional hunter have proven it.

Where the hell is gst when we need his opinion on stuff like this?

- - - Updated - - -

Heck, even one of the dumbest herbivores out there, aka cattle, use them all the time where we've built highways that intersected someone's very important pasture.

 

[deleted member]

Hey! Cows are smart mmmccckkkaaayy...

 

[dean nelson]

antelope do fences just fine - observed it a hundred times bowhunting them a lot in college (DSU)

the only time they don’t is when they’re pushed/stressed (being chased)

whatever - seems most people support the crossings - carry on

The point of antelope having trouble with fences is not even remotely up for debate! your tiny little anecdotal evidence is not even remotely close to over ruling the huge scientific studies that have been done on them. Here are just a couple Snippets from GPS studies the first ones North Dakota the second one is Montana.

"One preliminary finding is that pronghorn movement and migration is limited by highways and fences. Continued research will help biologists determine to what extent these obstacles prevent pronghorn movement. “What we’ve seen so far is that Interstate 94 appears to be a major barrier to winter pronghorn movements,” Stillings said"

"[FONT=&quot]Throughout the northern Great Plains, fencing has long vexed a prairie mammal that evolved to negotiate barriers no taller than a sagebrush. Though pronghorn can jump wire fences, they do so reluctantly, preferring to crawl under. But they often get snagged on the bottom barbs, or can’t slip under when snow is more than a foot deep. Most impenetrable are woven wire “sheep fences,” which extend to the ground. During fall and spring migrations, pronghorn squander precious energy wandering up and down fence lines in search of a way through. In some cases, Jakes found that his research pronghorn spent hours trying to get past a single fence. “Just think how much time and energy those animals have to spend negotiating 30 or 40 fences in the middle of winter during a migration,” he says"[/FONT]

 

[Fly Carpin]

Cite your sources please. I prefer Journal of Wildlife Management reference style, but I’ll settle for MLA if you’re pressed for time

 

[dean nelson]

One is a a snippet from an article written by Doug layer posted on several places this particular link is to nodak.
https://www.nodakoutdoors.com/valleyoutdoors79.php

The second comes from the Montana Fish and Wildlife service's article they wrote after they did a study.

http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2011/pronghorn.htm

 

[guywhofishes]

All of a sudden, in 2018, antelope and fences are a major problem that needs 10s of millions of $$$ spent to solve?

Meh. I've seen them crawl under fences a hundred times, entire herds, small groups, singles... hundreds of times and with complete ease. I worked in the oil patch for two years prior to college at DSU, then hunted my brains out for 5 years going to school (thus the result of not finishing in four). I drove up/down 85 almost every day for over a year.

I wasn't born yesterday - cite all the "science" you want. Yes, tight 4 wire fences give them major issues. How about we just make sure those aren't in place along the pronghorn road kill problem spots? Besides, when they're at the fence trying to get across they're well away from traffic - with time they find their way through it... it's not like they stand on the road thinking it over.

Like I said, the choice isn't binary.... it's not simply choice between lots of roadkill/accidents or having underpasses. There are a variety of solutions. With lower cost solutions there could be many more animal crossing zones put in place. One such solution is occasional zones with high bottom wires - just like the park system uses to allow animals to go in/out of the park with ease. And in those zones you have to slow to 40MPH for a 1/4 mile, with lots of signage.

Antelope and deer aren't endangered and are not in need of extraordinary measures to save them from road kill in my opinion. Habitat loss is much more of an issue if you look at contributions to population declines. I can agree with a couple crossings at unique locations for moose (safety) or bighorn. Not sure bighorns are even worth it though... they struggle with just about anything that has to do with people (especially the diseases domestic sheep carry). They're simply on the edge of good habitat for thriving.

And finally - your science articles discuss migration issues (hundreds of fence crossings). How are three or four crossings on 85 going to assist in solving that exactly? Are you going to remedy migration issues in ND with three or four multi-million dollar crossings? Your fence/migration issue seems out of place in this debate. Let's stick to the underpass projects and problems being discussed... road kill on 85.

 

[Bfishn]

Big Horn sheep crossing....cripes. How many millions of dollars are we going to waste on those f'n things before we just say screw it and let the cards fall where they may. Yes i think its cool we have them, but its not working.

Also anybody have a statistic on how many people are killed every year in ND by animal hits? I cant imagine its more than a couple, and don't give me that whole "even if it saves one life" argument.

 

[ndlongshot]

Guy. I'm not just trying to argue with you. I almost always agree with you on topics. And I agree with alot of what you just said about lots of solutions. There is...but I dont think you are hearing the message.

There is alot of information coming to light regarding ungulate migrations. And other western states are taking action to protect migration corridors because of the MASSIVE effects it can have on herd health. These corridors we speak of, THEY ARE THE HABITAT! And generally have been so necked down and intruded upon that narrow bands are all they have left for unfettered movement. They now have evidence of mule deer migrating nearly 250 miles from South WY into Idaho. Alot of ND goats travel south out of state in the winter. As the article states from NDGF, the pronghorn north of I94 have a hell of time making it south. Why do you think their populatinos are so vulnerable to winter? Seasons opened one year, closed the next. Its because they can't get from point A to point B.

It sounds like you are okay with the status quo. "Learn to live with fences or die!" Yes we live in a changing world, but some animals have trouble adapting to certain things. If you dont care about increasing the health and sustainability of the pronghorn heard thats fine. But the facts aren't on your side. Highways and fences are a huge factor for pronghorn, in particular. We can discuss every species on its own merits if you would like because each are unique. But dont be the old grumpy guy in the room who won't listen to whats being presented and consider it rationally. Just because you saw a pronghorn cross a fence just fine 30 years ago doesnt mean they dont pose a significant obstacle throughout their life cycle. Connectivity is a crucial thing when discussing wildlife populations.

Again, i'll end by saying this isnt us dog piling on you. We all respect you. Maybe take a second to pause and read up on recent ungulate migration research. These critters dont live in a finite box. They need room to roam and seek out food, water, shelter, and space. Those things move on the landscape from year to year. Getting killed in pursuit of them doesnt help anyone. Ecosystem or humans/safety problems. If we're preaching it, and other state governments have thought it a worthy endeavor, maybe there is something to it?

I understand if you dont agree with $7M underpass as solution. But there is a problem with collisions. And these have been proven to work. You just would rather pursue other solutions. Fair enough...

 

[guywhofishes]

yes - the thread morphed over to migration and the bigger issue almost instantly - resulting in my position being painted as an "anti-animal to save-money" position, while that's not me at all

I am in 100% agreement that general migration is a huge problem - one that makes me sad like you. Antelope not being able to head to other areas easily (I can only imagine how many miles they can put on in a day with no crossings) when it's a brutal winter where they currently are does indeed suck

my point of contention was that these underpasses aren't mass migration solvers - they solve a localized animal movement and vehicle collision issue. Crossing one highway safely is a drop in the bucket when it comes to long distance migration they might make for seasons/drought/etc. where hundreds of fences are waiting. I'd like more economical solutions so that we could implement them darn near everywhere that they'd be beneficial.

I'd be fine with trying to get all fencing somehow more critter-friendly to give the ungulates a chance. But the scale of solving the issue with any effectiveness in monstrous : (

GPS shock collars on all domestic herd animals? Ha ha ha

 

[Kurtr]

Wyoming has radio collars and done studies on mule deer these crossing seem to help hugely.

 

[johnr]

It’s gay

 

[dean nelson]

Damn pesky fences! :;:smokin

https://youtu.be/mA7lbBv-pYs