Teaching 'Back' Command

[FishSticks]

Hello

I have been working with my dog Bernie (not named after the socialist from Vermont) hand signals. He seems to get the 'Over' commands very well either to the right or left. We started doing that treats early on and now have progressed to dummies at short distances. Before extending the distances on the 'Over' commands I would like to get him going on 'Back'. I've tried tossing the dummy over his head then doing the signal/command but he gets too excited and turns away to look at the dummy and can't see my hand.

I think I am going to start placing dummies and not throwing them next to see if that helps any. Does anyone have any good tips from previous experience?

He has been very obedient and now responds to the whistle. It is going to be a great fall.

 

[Duckslayer100]

How old is your pup? Is it Force Fetched?

Here's what I did to get my wirehair to back:

1) Set your dog at heel and walk out about 10 yards and place a bumper.

2) Turn around and walk back to the starting point and place the pup with a "sit" or "woah" or whatever your place command is.

3) Take one more step, turn around and face the pup. At this point, your dog should have its back to the bumper.

4) Command "Back!" with your hand raised. Your dog should spin around and grab the bumper.

This is basic, basic stuff, but that's the starting building blocks. I'm no retriever guy, but I eventually was able to get my Remy to line 200 yards as we prepped for his title run. It worked.

 

[3Roosters]

50 ft check chord and a whistle...followed by e collar. leave dummy at home until he gets the back command.
Once pup is out 50 ft. ...whistle.or state BACK..then give check chord a firm tug to let him/her know he has gone far enough...do this a few more times. repeat 3-4 times a week. It wont be long at all and he will know that when you state back or whistle he has gone far enough. Once he is good at that, replace check chord with the e collar and repeat the process. If he doesn't come back to your whistle or your back command, give him a vibration or nick. He will have that figured out in very short order that he needs to either listen to the whistle or the back command or he will get a correction. Shouldn't need to do it more than once or twice and they will have it figured out.
Not sure if that is what you were asking though. haha

 

[Duckslayer100]

50 ft check chord and a whistle...followed by e collar. leave dummy at home until he gets the back command.
Once pup is out 50 ft. ...whistle.or state BACK..then give check chord a firm tug to let him/her know he has gone far enough...do this a few more times. repeat 3-4 times a week. It wont be long at all and he will know that when you state back or whistle he has gone far enough. Once he is good at that, replace check chord with the e collar and repeat the process. If he doesn't come back to your whistle or your back command, give him a vibration or nick. He will have that figured out in very short order that he needs to either listen to the whistle or the back command or he will get a correction. Shouldn't need to do it more than once or twice and they will have it figured out.
Not sure if that is what you were asking though. haha

I think you may be confusing what "Back" he is referring to.

I believe that the "Back" FishSticks is speaking of is for sending a dog on a line for a blind retrieve.

 

[3Roosters]

hahahaha..probably so..that's what I get for multitasking..haha Good catch. Carry on.Thumbs Up

 

[Finaddict]

What Duckslayer said, but work him along a fence line to keep him running straight. Walk him at heel along the fence, drop a dummy, heel him back along the fence 50 yards or so, have him sit, back up along the fence a short distance while keeping his attention, and then send him with the back command. Works great as long as the pup understands the sit, and heel commands, and delivers to hand. Do this a few times and then extend the distance of the retrieve. With experience you can add a twist to the drill by calling him to you, stopping him after a few feet, and then send him back. add in an over once in a while, and you're on your way.

 

[jdinny]

get the 10 minute retriever book.

this is a simple task but in the field is a lot more of a concept than we realize.

before teaching "casting" hand signals your dog needs to know the difference between a "blind" retrieve and a "marked" retrieve.
Blind= he cant see it
marked= he marked it and is ready to rock

i use "get out" as my command. so for a marked bird i line him up and say "get out" for a blind retrieve i line him up facing the downed bird and say "line" followed by "get out"

seems basic and easy but by me saying "line" he knows theres a bird out there. again this is teamwork and accomplished after hours of traiing.

when you start casting you need him to "force to back" or trust that when you send him out 100,200,300 yards theres a bird out there. you simply do this by placing a dummy at 5 10 15 20 25 etc yards and working each day, week until hes going 200 yards or better. it helps to have a tree row, fence line etc when starting to help keep his line, progressing to open fields.

when that's accomplished you can start the fun stuff. think of a baseball field. hes pitcher you catcher and the bases. put a pile of dummies at 1st, 2nd and 3rd. dogs will pick up 1st and 3rd easily. 2nd as others said blow your whistle ( sit command) if hes not trained to whistle do it unless you wanna be the crazy running screaming at your dog guy to listen when hes 200 yards away) he should be facing you say you release comman 9 get out) as you step forward 2-3 steps and raise your Rt hand high over head. it also helps your dogs when going Rt and Lt to walk a couple paces and with Rt arm put out to go Rt and Lt to go left.

sorry for the length please pm if interested. there is many many steps in between that need to be done to not confuse the dog instead of teacing it one thing then going backwards to re-learn it.

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the " forcing to back " part can be real frustrating but work hard on it. think about it your dog isn't magically placed by the bird for you to send signals he needs to take a "line" as far as possible then start with the whistle, hand signals/casting work

i know clear as mud when reading it. i have multiple DVDs which can help you picture it better and the book if you wanna borrow it. just pm i don't need it currently. im just working my 10 and 5 year old labs so all just refresher course for me this summer

 

[FishSticks]

He is 11 months, not force fetched but does retrieve to hand.

This is all very good stuff, thanks guys.

I believe I will start with what Duckslayer and Fin mentioned, short at first then continually increase distances (using a fence or something to best help him follow a line).

JDinny - Based off your response, I can tell I have some work to do. We have only technically have done marked retrieves where my command is 'fetch'. It sounds like I should start using a new command for a blind retrieve. Would 'back' be the proper command for this? What other words would work here? I've heard of the baseball field drill, obviously we have a ways to go before doing this.

I really appreciate the help and feedback!

 

[wby257]

What I would do is take the little flags for underground wiring and put like 3 out maybe 50 yds away and plant bumpers there. Walk him through the area so he knows the bumpers are there. Line him up and say back. He will run to the flag to retrieve the bumper. Do that for a week or so then take the flags away and just leave the bumpers. That way he has to use his nose. Then start putting the bumpers out farther. You dont want him to start popping short and getting hung up on a certain range.

 

[jdinny]

wby257, yep I used traffic cones once they get use to a spot switch training spots to see if the dog learned or is going off memory. its quite funny to watch young dogs get confsed and go to the last retrieve they did because they haven't learned yet.

fish sticks your dog is a pup--- hes young what I typed there wasn't complete until he was 3 years old. his prime will be between 4-6 years old. my ten year old is as smart as they come but he cant do what he use to in terms of speed, and stamina.

use whatever term you want but it needs to be quick, smooth to say and not confusing. I use get out as my release command, "line" just means that hey buddy I know you didn't see it fall but its out there and this is the line (my hand is over is head make a line" ) I want you to take.

 

[gonefshn]

He is 11 months, not force fetched but does retrieve to hand.

This is all very good stuff, thanks guys.

I believe I will start with what Duckslayer and Fin mentioned, short at first then continually increase distances (using a fence or something to best help him follow a line).

JDinny - Based off your response, I can tell I have some work to do. We have only technically have done marked retrieves where my command is 'fetch'. It sounds like I should start using a new command for a blind retrieve. Would 'back' be the proper command for this? What other words would work here? I've heard of the baseball field drill, obviously we have a ways to go before doing this.

I really appreciate the help and feedback!

I know the Wildrose Kennels/UK Labs video trains to do it basically like Duck said. Twists would be that you hold your hand straight up in the air to signal the back command as they may not hear you in the field when out on a long retrieve and it follows with the right/left they'll have to learn as well. When training my last lab that way I would set the dummy, then walk a ways away from it with her. I'd them make her sit and walk further away. Instead of having her go straight back to the dummy, I'd call her to come to me a little ways first and then using a stop/sit command have her stop and sit. I'd then use the back command. Idea was to get her to stop and sit before I made the command as this is more helpful in a live field environment where they came up short or didn't see the bird. Stopping and sitting kind of restarts them for the command.

 

[ndlongshot]

This article explains what has already been said here pretty well, but packages it up nicely.

http://www.ducks.org/hunting/retriever-training/summer-drills-for-retrievers

 

[KDM]

Had a very good dog trainer tell me to use BOTH hands in the air when using the "back" command. He explained that the "Over" command normally uses only one hand in either direction, so to prevent confusion, especially at a distance, he used both for the "Back" command. I've never had to try to train this, but it made sense to me. Good Luck with your training!!!

 

[jdinny]

NDlong shot

that's a good read, the one about lining " wagon wheel" or whatever he called it is exactly the drill I did. the only difference is in the 10 minute retriever when introduces " multiple lines" and ,multiple retrieves they did it at 180 degrees so straight ahead 12 oclock) heel dog turn around and essentially a 180 from the previous retrieve 6 oclock then progressing to 3 and 9 as hes ready.

good stuff guys!

 

[FishSticks]

Did heel, dropped bumper, turned, heeled 10 yards away and gave the back command last night 4 or 5 times. The dog picked it up fairly quickly.

Then also put a dummy at 9 oclock and things went to hell haha. I suppose that is part of the fun though. Immediately after the failed drill we did a few easy ones to boost his confidence. I'm not expecting much with how young he is, it's cool to see him progress.

It will be a fun fall watching him work

 

[jdinny]

Did heel, dropped bumper, turned, heeled 10 yards away and gave the back command last night 4 or 5 times. The dog picked it up fairly quickly.

Then also put a dummy at 9 oclock and things went to hell haha. I suppose that is part of the fun though. Immediately after the failed drill we did a few easy ones to boost his confidence. I'm not expecting much with how young he is, it's cool to see him progress.

It will be a fun fall watching him work

fishticks your doing correctly,

dogs learn by "correction" so when they do it wrong the correction needs to be swift, stop them from the unwanted behavior and move on. always end on an easy, confidence building drill. and like your doing keep it fun. believe me all the hard work pays off when you watch em in the field and know you worked with them.

 

[Duckslayer100]

Did heel, dropped bumper, turned, heeled 10 yards away and gave the back command last night 4 or 5 times. The dog picked it up fairly quickly.

Then also put a dummy at 9 oclock and things went to hell haha. I suppose that is part of the fun though. Immediately after the failed drill we did a few easy ones to boost his confidence. I'm not expecting much with how young he is, it's cool to see him progress.

It will be a fun fall watching him work

Just remember: baby steps. Take things sloooooow. I never realized exactly what that entailed until I trained my first dog. Finally kicked in after the second and third dogs.

For a dog at 11 months, keep training lessons short -- 15-30 minutes tops. You're trying to build drive at this point. Next summers is when you'll really hit the high gear, but for now stick to the basics.

Before you move the bumper beyond the line, stick with just increasing the distance. Then, repeat with multiple bumpers. First 2...then 3. Etc. Eventually you can stop having her face you and send on a line from heel. Ladder drills are a great way to build repetition and distance.

As I said, I'm no retriever dude. I know enough about blinds to be dangerous, but probably not enough to shill advice past the basics.

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And what jdinny said, try to end on a high note. When the pup screws up, make a correct and try again. If you're progressing too quick and the dog is faltering, take a step back. I've been to the point of being 80 percent complete on FF and gone back to square one just to get things in line. It'll progress quick, but a hard reset like that is sometimes all it takes to break through a training wall.

Don't forget to have fun, too. Pups are pups only once.

Good luck!

 

[jdinny]

Just remember: baby steps. Take things sloooooow. I never realized exactly what that entailed until I trained my first dog. Finally kicked in after the second and third dogs.

For a dog at 11 months, keep training lessons short -- 15-30 minutes tops. You're trying to build drive at this point. Next summers is when you'll really hit the high gear, but for now stick to the basics.

Before you move the bumper beyond the line, stick with just increasing the distance. Then, repeat with multiple bumpers. First 2...then 3. Etc. Eventually you can stop having her face you and send on a line from heel. Ladder drills are a great way to build repetition and distance.

As I said, I'm no retriever dude. I know enough about blinds to be dangerous, but probably not enough to shill advice past the basics.

- - - Updated - - -

And what jdinny said, try to end on a high note. When the pup screws up, make a correct and try again. If you're progressing too quick and the dog is faltering, take a step back. I've been to the point of being 80 percent complete on FF and gone back to square one just to get things in line. It'll progress quick, but a hard reset like that is sometimes all it takes to break through a training wall.

Don't forget to have fun, too. Pups are pups only once.

Good luck!

best advice a guy can give right there.

Thumbs Up

if your not a patient man now train a few dogs and it will develop....plus kids will do that too