Water from the Great Lakes or Pacific NW

[Allen]

So if the mega drought starts how long do you think it would take to actually rush to finish the Garrison Diversion Project? Screw treaties and international lawsuits when it comes to emergency water shortages!

The current pipeline plan of the State's is kind of their way of going around federal obstacles. No way they can use the canal system though, those are federally owned by the US Bureau of Reclamation.

Truth is, nobody knows if this is the beginning of a megadrought, or if it's just another 1-2 yr dry spell. We generally don't know for sure when they start or begin until it's well in the rearview mirror. The current drought essentially started in March of 2020, sure doesn't look like it's going to break anytime soon, but winter often pushes the reset button pretty nicely.

 

[Reprobait]

Some of what Arizona is facing.

Starving cows. Fallow farms. The Arizona drought is among the worst in the country (yahoo.com)

 

[Davey Crockett]

Seems like the RR valley would benefit from aquifer Storage and Recovery (ASR) They do it in southern states with areas of excess river flow during wet years. I googled to see if it was legal in ND and see it's nothing new around here. I've heard one of the problems with pump and dump geothermal systems is it's sometimes hard to keep the formation taking water but a low aquafer seems like it should slurp it right up.


https://www.dwr.nd.gov/info_edu/reports_and_publications/oxbow_articles/2018_April.pdf

 

[Allen]

ASR in the West Fargo was one of the things we looked into when I worked on the RRV Water Supply Project. Needless to say, it also has its limitations. The two biggest concerns are:

1. Water clarity - basically, you have to remove all small particles of clay, organics, etc. If you are using a surface water supply, like the Red River, suspended solids are a significant concern. All those little inorganic suspended solids eventually plug the aquifer near the well bore and are tough to remove.

2. Similar to water clarity is water quality. One must do a good job of making sure the water quality of the source water is compatible with the water quality and aquifer matrix. If not, you will get chemical precipitates that do the same plugging as one gets if suspended solids are not removed.

Not exactly things that can't be overcome, but not that many years ago the State wasn't such a fan of it. Probably because it conflicted with the Missouri River options for a water supply.

 

[lunkerslayer]

ASR in the West Fargo was one of the things we looked into when I worked on the RRV Water Supply Project. Needless to say, it also has its limitations. The two biggest concerns are:

1. Water clarity - basically, you have to remove all small particles of clay, organics, etc. If you are using a surface water supply, like the Red River, suspended solids are a significant concern. All those little inorganic suspended solids eventually plug the aquifer near the well bore and are tough to remove.

2. Similar to water clarity is water quality. One must do a good job of making sure the water quality of the source water is compatible with the water quality and aquifer matrix. If not, you will get chemical precipitates that do the same plugging as one gets if suspended solids are not removed.

Not exactly things that can't be overcome, but not that many years ago the State wasn't such a fan of it. Probably because it conflicted with the Missouri River options for a water supply.

Allen will the water from the Missouri River need to be treated before being dumped into the sheyanne River?

 

[Davey Crockett]

Allen will the water from the Missouri River need to be treated before being dumped into the sheyanne River?

I'm wondering why they would pump it that far and then dump it in the Cheyenne ?

 

[lunkerslayer]

I believe the reason is that the sheyanne River flows in to Fargo as well as being the first major River into the red River water system.

 

[Davey Crockett]

I get it now, I missed post 54

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I was thinking pipeline all the way to Fargo

 

[lunkerslayer]

Yeah I was talking to the old man this evening and he said that in Minneapolis you can walk across the Mississippi River, so how much water are the ACoE really going to let be piped to eastern North Dakota. Especially if we have a prolonged drought which if you think about it it was only 3 falls ago farmers in the red River Valley had flooded fields.

 

[Allen]

Allen will the water from the Missouri River need to be treated before being dumped into the sheyanne River?

Per the international agreements (treaties), the simple answer is yes. However, that has always been deemed a federal responsibility, and I have no idea where those discussions have gone over the past several years.

Back when we considered it for the RRVWSP, our Canadian friends basically demanded that it be treated to levels not even found at your local faucet. Obviously, this is one of the sticking points with Canada. They literally cited the paddlefish as a species not found in the Hudson's bay drainage that they were concerned about. Trust me, there are far more legit concerns than a baby paddlefish showing up in Winnipeg, so it was hard to take them serious at times. Nonetheless, this is an incredible obstacle that not only has implications on this topic, but the Northwest Area Water Supply project that Minot and many other small towns in the Souris (Mouse) River Basin are going to greatly appreciate. And that's why there isn't a drop of water going through the pipeline that has already been laid from roughly Snake Creek pumping plant to Minot. Canada has been very successful in suing to prevent things from going forward.

ND is often kind of a renegade on the international and inter-state water topics. Note, and not always wrong when doing it, but we certainly have some large WTF's?

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Yeah I was talking to the old man this evening and he said that in Minneapolis you can walk across the Mississippi River, so how much water are the ACoE really going to let be piped to eastern North Dakota. Especially if we have a prolonged drought which if you think about it it was only 3 falls ago farmers in the red River Valley had flooded fields.

Umm, it was 2019.

Also, you do know the Missouri River joins the Mississippi quite a few miles downstream of Minneapolis, right?

Lastly, permitting of the "natural flows" of water in North Dakota is a ND State Water Commission right and responsibility. Uhh, sorry...it's now the North Dakota Water Resources Dept (that renaming stuff is normally the shits, and this is no different). Anyway, there will likely be a Corps permit for the intake, but permitting of the water is solely within the rights of ND.

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I'm wondering why they would pump it that far and then dump it in the Cheyenne ?

Essentially, during a major drought, the pipeline could run 12 months a year and that would be used to supply water to Ashtabula. When the city of Fargo needs water (river has run near dry), they can call on a release out of Ashtabula to provide municipal and industrial water. The plus side here is that the pipeline can run in the winter when water demand tends to be at a minimum. Resizing the pipeline to meet peak demand and running it all the way to Farhole would cost a few more dollars. However, given the delay on the order of several days, for the water to arrive in Fargo, I don't think it would take but one miscalculation on when to call for water before the push to have a pipeline directly from Ashtabula to Fargo really gains traction.