Michigan deer annoyance

[lunkerslayer]

https://www.interlochenpublicradio....ons-to-its-deer-problem-will-any-of-them-work
Is this proof that cwd is a man made problem because deer are overpopulated because of lack of quality habitation? Which is the real reason why biologist haven't been able to with any significant evidence to tell us why some deer are being infected while others are not and how the cwd is spreading from herd to herd even when those deer are separated by high fence.
This is the second thread with the same issue overpopulation of deer within a civilian population. Other was in Pennsylvania I think

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Read some scuttlebutt about a CWD Stamp. Every sportsman (getting a deer tag) is required to purchase a stamp for twenty bucks. The money is to pay for testing.

Every animal harvested would have to be tested.

 

[lunkerslayer]

Squeeze more money out of sportsman, spent or is spending millions over decades to give us hypothetical conclusions

 

[wslayer]

Not sure that's gonna fly very well . . .

 

[lunkerslayer]

Here me out now because I have a question that perhaps someone can help answering. Can science detect.prions in soil? Deer I know need to eat soil to help with digestion so what if prions are in the dirt the deer eat becoming infected. I just dont see deer French kissing or blowing snot bubbles to other deer to infect them. Anyone want to provide me with some reading material because I am always willing to learn new things that can affect me personally.

 

[lunkerslayer]

@Fritz the Cat can you post that link that talks about the problem with cwd and high fence. I cant seem to find it and I think you were the one who posted it. That one really puts things into perspective as far as deer to deer infection. Thanks

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Lunk, not sure what study you mean? Was reading your article and came upon Bernd Blossey who works for Cornell University. He wants more liberties taking deer to lower their numbers.

Sometimes it seems the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing. Krysten Schuler also works for Cornell University and is totally about lock downs.

Her name is all over the "best management practices" and she has testified before Congress how bad funding is needed. Her webpage:

https://cwhl.vet.cornell.edu/staff/krysten-schuler

Stamping Out Wildlife Disease: Are Hunter-Funded Stamp Programs a Viable Option for Chronic Wasting Disease Management? .

https://conbio.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/csp2.12779

Right now, NDGF is asking sportsmen to turn in deer heads and the government pays the bill. At some future date hunters will be asked to fund testing into perpetuity.

And Krysten Schuler is wildlife society. Below:

https://wildlife.org/ten-members-named-tws-fellows-for-2021/

Do not debate the CWD stamp, the price, the do it for your family scenario's, the piece of mind knowing what you have in the freezer etc. etc. The Administrative State knows sportsmen better than Pavlov's dog.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10871209.2023.2293020

Chronic wasting disease (CWD) is a prion-based disease that poses an imminent threat to New York State (NYS), but many NYS hunters do not perceive it as a salient issue or follow recommended practices to prevent its spread to NYS. This study sought to identify the social-psychological factors underlying the efficacy of social media interventions to increase risk perceptions of CWD in NYS. We conducted an online survey experiment with 2760 NYS hunters and found that perceived similarity of an information source on social media and hunters’ biospheric values and descriptive norms increased risk perceptions of the threat of CWD to deer and deer hunting in NYS. We also found that biospheric values and knowledge increased risk perceptions of behaviors contributing to the spread of CWD to NYS. We encourage regulators to collaborate with opinion leaders in the hunting community to disseminate CWD prevention messages on social media to maximize message efficacy.

 

[grumster]

Michigan is thick with deer, the southern lower sees no winter kill the northern lower sees winter kill a bit in extreme winters, the UP can have extreme winter kills like us.. cwd isn't a factor other than the state issuing a kill on site policy. Michigan isn't ND.. one bad winter here self corrects it's self...

 

[Trip McNeely]

Here me out now because I have a question that perhaps someone can help answering. Can science detect.prions in soil? Deer I know need to eat soil to help with digestion so what if prions are in the dirt the deer eat becoming infected. I just dont see deer French kissing or blowing snot bubbles to other deer to infect them. Anyone want to provide me with some reading material because I am always willing to learn new things that can affect me personally.

Prion is a fancy word for “we don’t have a fucking clue about any of this so we’re going to make some shit up”

 

[Reprobait]

I have read that in states like Michigan, Wisc, and Minn the median age of a deer hunter is around 60. That will have a huge effect on in the not-too-distant future. They are going to have to change some things.

 

[lunkerslayer]

At 3 hours 35 minutes Dr. Tracey Nichols comes on. At hour 4, you want to hear this. At 4:28 the chairman refers to the $12 million in funding.

Millions and millions of dollars spent every year and we are no closer to conclusively understand how prions are spread. My opinion is that the only way cwd is going to be figured out with irrefutable evidence is if for some reason humans are being infected and we know for with great certainty, the prions are only harmful to humans if the contaminated brain is consumed or is allowed to contact the body of the infected deer carcass. Until prions are able to change genetically to infect the entire deer, science will continue to waste funding because they have nothing better to do with their time.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Keith Warren.

My sentiments exactly. Been saying it forever. Money for research, zero money for this monitoring.

 

[lunkerslayer]

Thank you fritz yet again you come to the rescue and provide us the information that tells us the facts without the hidden agenda. Yes some will say it is still an agenda but that agenda is for the betterment of the overall deer herd. I watched over half of the video, but I would like for discussions like this to point to links to articles of what is being discussed. @guywhofishes and others as well were ones who touched extensively on genetic topics and how genetics can be beneficial in overall health of the herd by producing deer that are immune to the affects of the cwd. What I found interesting was how cwd was detected in Wisconsin after, deer from another research facility in Colorado that were transfered to Wisconsin that later causeed an outbreak in local deer that were less then 50 miles from the research facility. Wisconsin wildlife management solutions was to kill 100 plus thousand of deer which never did stop the spread of cwd.
They brought up how deer especially in Texas were grown and released from game farms in the 40 and 50s, where they speculate that cwd might be a mutation that happened when game farms that were trying to produce a deer that was immune to another disease that were infecting deer during that period of time. Again Well done fritz you never cease to amaze me in what you can find and your passion for the wildlife that you support.
Another is the, the men on this podcast, make a great argument in the fact that if funding is generated by sportsman for the development and research that it is actually allows sportsman a greater voice, then if funding is generated by tax revenue. So I believe I was too hasty in my previous post on generating revenue by ways of sportsman being charged a fee used to monitor deer testing on all harvested deer.
I believe anything that will be done, will actually make things worse before anything is made better since beurocratical bullshit is dictated by those with nothing to lose allowing resources to be destroyed without any oversight from those who are supportive of the conservation of the resource of wildlife like deer.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Thank you fritz yet again you come to the rescue and provide us the information that tells us the facts without the hidden agenda. Yes some will say it is still an agenda but that agenda is for the betterment of the overall deer herd. I watched over half of the video, but I would like for discussions like this to point to links to articles of what is being discussed. @guywhofishes and others as well were ones who touched extensively on genetic topics and how genetics can be beneficial in overall health of the herd by producing deer that are immune to the affects of the cwd. What I found interesting was how cwd was detected in Wisconsin after, deer from another research facility in Colorado that were transfered to Wisconsin that later causeed an outbreak in local deer that were less then 50 miles from the research facility. Wisconsin wildlife management solutions was to kill 100 plus thousand of deer which never did stop the spread of cwd.
They brought up how deer especially in Texas were grown and released from game farms in the 40 and 50s, where they speculate that cwd might be a mutation that happened when game farms that were trying to produce a deer that was immune to another disease that were infecting deer during that period of time. Again Well done fritz you never cease to amaze me in what you can find and your passion for the wildlife that you support.
Another is the, the men on this podcast, make a great argument in the fact that if funding is generated by sportsman for the development and research that it is actually allows sportsman a greater voice, then if funding is generated by tax revenue. So I believe I was too hasty in my previous post on generating revenue by ways of sportsman being charged a fee used to monitor deer testing on all harvested deer.
I believe anything that will be done, will actually make things worse before anything is made better since beurocratical bullshit is dictated by those with nothing to lose allowing resources to be destroyed without any oversight from those who are supportive of the conservation of the resource of wildlife like deer.

The deer at University of Madison Wisconsin escaped. There was an investigation. Not much info was released about the deer release.

I can remember George W. Bush promising $50 million in his State of the Union address back then. $32 million of that was wasted in Wisconsin sharp shooting 172,000 deer in three counties around Madison ground zero. It failed.

During the podcast, Keith Warren and Dr. Kroll at 32 minutes 40 seconds it failed. The DNR wanted them to change the wording to unsuccessful. Then Texas brought a leader in that Wisconsin debacle to Texas. These two on the podcast are more gentlemen than I. The fellow's name is Bryan Richards from the U.S. Geological Survey. To save all the deer you first have to kill all the deer.

Below is a podcast with Randy Newberg, Dr. Charlie Bahnson DVM NDGF and Bryan Richards USGS:

https://www.stitcher.com/show/hunt-...nservation/episode/north-dakota-cwd-211080925

At thirty-four minutes:

No. 1 Carcass movement
No. 2 Targeted culling
No. 3 Baiting restrictions
No. 4 Sharpshooting

Well shit......just noticed that stitcher is no longer available.

 

[guywhofishes]

Follow the Science... Unless You Don't Like It | Fresh Tracks Weekly (Ep. 79)​

^^^ Follow the Science.

Sound familiar??? I'm so damn sick of experts proclaiming their current understanding is enough to start telling everyone what to do and when. They're so damn smug all the time.

How'd that work out for the world recently???

 

[Fritz the Cat]

At 3 minutes 30 seconds this social influencer puts up some graphs about the public's attitudes concerning hunting fishing sport shooting and trapping.

These graphs came from the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies.

https://www.fishwildlife.org/application/files/7715/5733/7920/NSSF_2019_Attitudes_Survey_Report.pdf

Pages 24 and 35.

Those numbers came from telephone surveys.

 

[BrockW]

…others as well were ones who touched extensively on genetic topics and how genetics can be beneficial in overall health of the herd by producing deer that are immune to the affects of the cwd.

There is currently no such thing as CWD “immunity”. 96SS whitetail deer are less susceptible, but they are not “resistant”. They can still get the disease and they still die from the disease, they also still shed infectious material. The same goes for mule deer(225FF) and elk (132LL).

They also know that there are multiple “strains” of prions and that since the host’s own body is directly involved in creating prion proteins, the potential is high for strain mutation and new strain emergence. In fact, they’ve already seen 132LL elk produce a novel strain of prions.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-59819-1

 

[lunkerslayer]

There is currently no such thing as CWD “immunity”. 96SS whitetail deer are less susceptible, but they are not “resistant”. They can still get the disease and they still die from the disease, they also still shed infectious material. The same goes for mule deer(225FF) and elk (132LL).

They also know that there are multiple “strains” of prions and that since the host’s own body is directly involved in creating prion proteins, the potential is high for strain mutation and new strain emergence. In fact, they’ve already seen 132LL elk produce a novel strain of prions.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-59819-1

Thanks Brock for the information, the issue here is that so far the overall solution is to slaughter 100 percent without atleast quarantine and monitor the rest of the herd. That doesn't make since to me and is one of those things that should bother you as a fellow sportsman. Fritz and majority here see that more of the junk Science of decades ago is still being used in today's solution to stopping the spread of cwd.
Brock did you watch the video, if so what did you get from it because strongly recommend you do. The way the government has dealt withthuis disease can be compared to the shitshow of the Chyna flu the "coof". If you watch the video you will see the similarities in the incompetence of the testing done.
Also can you or fritz find the information that they talked about as far as the deer that were developed back in the 40/50s to stop an early disease that perhaps is the cause of the cwd now.
And fritz how the hell does an infected deer escape from a research facility? Its to similar to the coof from the wuhan lab.

 

[BrockW]

Thanks Brock for the information, the issue here is that so far the overall solution is to slaughter 100 percent without atleast quarantine and monitor the rest of the herd. That doesn't make since to me and is one of those things that should bother you as a fellow sportsman. Fritz and majority here see that more of the junk Science of decades ago is still being used in today's solution to stopping the spread of cwd.
Brock did you watch the video, if so what did you get from it because strongly recommend you do. The way the government has dealt withthuis disease can be compared to the shitshow of the Chyna flu the "coof". If you watch the video you will see the similarities in the incompetence of the testing done.
Also can you or fritz find the information that they talked about as far as the deer that were developed back in the 40/50s to stop an early disease that perhaps is the cause of the cwd now.
And fritz how the hell does an infected deer escape from a research facility? Its to similar to the coof from the wuhan lab.

I watched that video the day it was first released.
To your post, there's a lot to unpack here. First of all, I'm not sure why there is such a willingness to take whatever Keith Warren or Dr. Deer say as fact. They are some of the most heavily biased folks in this discussion, as both have financial ties to the deer farming industry and/or feeding/baiting products.

Specifically, Dr. Deer has openly advocated against public hunters and public hunting oppotunity; he thinks everything should be privatized the way of the rest of the world.

So, if you're an average joe hunter, Dr. Deer does not have your best interest in mind.
https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/...-will-high-fence-hunting-bias-skew-final-plan

On top of that, Dr. Deer is not even a veterinarian or a big game biologist. His background is Herpetology (lizards and amphibians), and he has never performed or been involved in a SINGLE study or research effort on ANY disease of deer or cervids. Not one.

In 2007 he predicted that CWD prevalence would never exceed 2% in Wisconsin....how did that prediction turn out?
https://www.patrickdurkinoutdoors.com/post/deer-czar-fails-to-assess-impacts-of-his-2012-report

Second, the "solution" as you say is not to "slaughter 100 percent". That a completely false representation of the culling strategies currently taking place. The culling that is happening these days is a tiny fraction of the deer populations. Look at where the culling is going on, places like Illinois, Wisconsin, Arkansas, Missouri, places with deer populations well into the MILLIONS of deer. Most of the culling taking place nowadays is very targeted and very localized, hitting small family groups of deer that are thought to have contact with a known positive test. This is far cry from wiping "100%" of the deer.

And notice how most of the Mule deer states, and states in the west with lower deer densities, they're doing virtually zero culling. This idea that this is all a way to wipe out all the deer and deer hunting is an absolute joke.

Now to refute some of the significant items in that video.

Dr. Deer claims that CWD does not affect fecundity or recruitment. This is false. The University of Georgia, Arkansas Game and Fish, and others have all participated in research that shows white-tailed deer being born with CWD and subsequently dying from the disease at a young age. Once these papers have been published, I will gladly share them here. In fact, I talk with Dr. Ruder about this in Part 1 of our recent podcast with him on Hemorrhagic disease. In Arkansas's population study using GPS collars, they have positives in fawns as young as 6 months. The likelihood that a deer that is born with CWD, or is positive at 6 months old, will replace itself on the landscape is not good.


Listen to the first part of this podcast where I talk directly with Dr. Ruder about this very topic.
https://www.backcountryhunters.org/north_dakota_bha_podcast_episode_6

Again, Keith Warren and Dr. Deer want to "stock resistant" deer. There is no such thing as resistant deer. Dr. Seabury himself has said in a public meeting, multiple times, that his breeding program won't work on wild deer because you have no control over breeding in the wild. Additionally, Dr. Seabury refuses to submit deer from his breeding program to inoculation studies because he knows they'll become positive and die from the disease, lessening the market value of his product that last I checked he charges $75 per animal. Anyone know how many animals are in his breeding program? It ain't just a few.....


Dr. Deer says Wisconsin culled "172,000 deer in one day". Show me where this took place, because there is nothing that substantiates this. I believe Dr. Deer is intentionally misconstruing the events to try and make the DNR look bad. I'm almost certain what he is actually talking about is an effort in the early 2000s where the Wisconsin DNR went in and culled 15,000 deer in their "disease eradication zone" and then saw that indeed it didn't work in eradicating the disease. This supports the current science that says once prevalence eclipses about 1.8%, there is likely a 0 percent probability that you will eradicate the disease.

But the state of New York did eradicate it through culling, because they caught it early. So, it can work, and it can slow growth in prevalence rates. But culling is certainly not a one size fits all tool, and results have certainly been mixed. I share some of the heart burn over deer culling but, objectively I can also see it's logical application to the situation.
https://dec.ny.gov/nature/animals-f...ealth/animal-diseases/chronic-wasting-disease

Dr. Deer says CWD is only a frequency dependent disease. Again, not black and white. CWD is considered "intermediate", though it leans towards frequency dependent. But think of Frequency dependent and density dependent modes of transmission as a spectrum and CWD is in the middle.
https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1890/ES12-00141.1
https://russell-cwd.webhosting.cals.wisc.edu/foi/transmission-modes/


Keith says "follow the money". Dr Deer says "a continued appropriation of 72 million dollars portioned out to the states"....again.... this is false. The CWD management and research act has NEVER been fully appropriated.

Does Dr. Deer know any of this? Is he lying? How could he be so misinformed on a topic he claims to be the authority on.

 

[BrockW]

At 3 hours 35 minutes Dr. Tracey Nichols comes on. At hour 4, you want to hear this. At 4:28 the chairman refers to the $12 million in funding.

Millions and millions of dollars spent every year and we are no closer to conclusively understand how prions are spread. My opinion is that the only way cwd is going to be figured out with irrefutable evidence is if for some reason humans are being infected and we know for with great certainty, the prions are only harmful to humans if the contaminated brain is consumed or is allowed to contact the body of the infected deer carcass. Until prions are able to change genetically to infect the entire deer, science will continue to waste funding because they have nothing better to do with their time.

Tracy Nichols is saying they have no idea how it's entering some cervid farms, not that they don't know how it's contagious.

They have proven over and over again that it spreads through horizontal transmission and through environmental transmission. What they don't know, is the exact carrier into a new captive facility that has never had the disease before. In many cases, they suspect it's contaminated feed/hay, or some other type of indirect contamination. Sometimes they suspect there was a false negative test or an animal did not have detectable levels of prions in their test, therefore it was missed.