Could actually be fun. None of that IPA shit though.
I think I’d have to bring someone to record the whole thing though. Otherwise Fritz is likely to run into a door knob and then tell everyone I “rammed into him” or something.
Last edited:
Michigan deer annoyance
- Thread starter lunkerslayer
- Start date
I think I’d have to bring someone to record the whole thing though. Otherwise Fritz is likely to run into a door knob and then tell everyone I “rammed into him” or something.
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Game and Fish personnel witnessed it and then I followed you over and asked what was that about? You started sniveling something about being harassed and being threatened. That was between you and John Armon after he called you out for embellishing.
And then you posted over on Randy Newberg's hunttalk the guys in North Dakota are so bad your wife is afraid to leave the house. I'm not going to look for the post. The reason I remember it is you were debating with some guy about CWD and he was tired of it and he said, "I can understand why those guys in ND want to beat the hell out of you."
And then you posted over on Randy Newberg's hunttalk the guys in North Dakota are so bad your wife is afraid to leave the house. I'm not going to look for the post. The reason I remember it is you were debating with some guy about CWD and he was tired of it and he said, "I can understand why those guys in ND want to beat the hell out of you."
In all serious Dwight, I think what’s most disappointing isn’t even that you lie. A lot of us expect that from you. Heading into the 23 session I heard from multiple folks in Hazen letting me know how you operate. Conspiracy theories and lies, that’s your reputation. Honestly, In some ways I feel sorry for you.
But I think it’s more the idea that you are so desperate to get some sort of victory, that you will drag in separate issues instead of staying on topic and making a coherent argument. If someone actually makes a better argument than you, catches you speaking out of both sides of your mouth, twisting truths, or just perpetuating BS you resort to personal attacks. It’s like you get some sort of pleasure out of it.
No, I never rammed into you, that’s an utterly ridiculous accusation. I’m half your age and probably have 50 lbs on you, what benefit would there be for me to do such a thing to an old man in front of the ENR committee, GF staff or other conservation groups? That is beyond absurd.
And FWIW Arman never “called me out” for embellishing. He threatened to sue me for telling the truth, a truth that I could and still can prove 100%. But I'm not concerned with proving a point on that issue, I’d prefer to focus on more important things, like the subject matter itself. But you’re right, that’s between him and I, and you have no involvement in that. And I’d like to think that him and I have moved past that, despite disagreement between us. But what kind of man are you to bring that up?
What I’ve stated regarding my wife is that for about a month she was afraid to answer a knock at the door because of threats I was receiving from people associated with that FB page, some of whom I presume are buddies of yours. You seem to bring this up as some sort of “gotcha”, but frankly, I think it reveals some sort of pathological and sociopathic thinking. It’s pathetic that you think that somehow notches you a point in this conversation.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that I have never once, not a single time through this issue, threatened anyone, brought their wife or kids into it, spread lies about anyone, or personally attacked anyone. I call BS when I see it and pursue the facts, that has quite obviously lead to some hurt feelings from you and those on your side of the issue. But I trust you’ll manage. I recommend you start acting your age. I appreciate a good debate on an issue, and am happy to talk wildlife and hunting with pretty much anyone. I can disagree and still hold a conversation. But what you’re doing here is trying to pull this conversation into the shitter, and I think you can do better. Man up.
But I think it’s more the idea that you are so desperate to get some sort of victory, that you will drag in separate issues instead of staying on topic and making a coherent argument. If someone actually makes a better argument than you, catches you speaking out of both sides of your mouth, twisting truths, or just perpetuating BS you resort to personal attacks. It’s like you get some sort of pleasure out of it.
No, I never rammed into you, that’s an utterly ridiculous accusation. I’m half your age and probably have 50 lbs on you, what benefit would there be for me to do such a thing to an old man in front of the ENR committee, GF staff or other conservation groups? That is beyond absurd.
And FWIW Arman never “called me out” for embellishing. He threatened to sue me for telling the truth, a truth that I could and still can prove 100%. But I'm not concerned with proving a point on that issue, I’d prefer to focus on more important things, like the subject matter itself. But you’re right, that’s between him and I, and you have no involvement in that. And I’d like to think that him and I have moved past that, despite disagreement between us. But what kind of man are you to bring that up?
What I’ve stated regarding my wife is that for about a month she was afraid to answer a knock at the door because of threats I was receiving from people associated with that FB page, some of whom I presume are buddies of yours. You seem to bring this up as some sort of “gotcha”, but frankly, I think it reveals some sort of pathological and sociopathic thinking. It’s pathetic that you think that somehow notches you a point in this conversation.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that I have never once, not a single time through this issue, threatened anyone, brought their wife or kids into it, spread lies about anyone, or personally attacked anyone. I call BS when I see it and pursue the facts, that has quite obviously lead to some hurt feelings from you and those on your side of the issue. But I trust you’ll manage. I recommend you start acting your age. I appreciate a good debate on an issue, and am happy to talk wildlife and hunting with pretty much anyone. I can disagree and still hold a conversation. But what you’re doing here is trying to pull this conversation into the shitter, and I think you can do better. Man up.
BrockW I can relate to your experience. After a meeting in Jamestown a post on nodakoutdoors claimed I was there calling people names and refering to landowners as fing landowners. It became evident it was a lie because I was in Texas that winter. It's the same MO as the communist divide and conquer.
I agree. Deception comes in many forms, but all forms are perpetrated by dishonest people.I think NBA players should be suspended for a game for flopping.
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Brock, you are certainly a little drama queen.
PrairieGhost, as usual, its story time.
PrairieGhost, as usual, its story time.
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We all live it. It's in the news. Yesterday Outdoor Life put out an article:
Outdoor Life
Wyoming hunter Meg Stanton had to reread her mule deer’s chronic wasting disease results a couple times. The four-point buck she had shot in an old burn scar last fall had looked healthy. It showed no signs of disease. But the test came back positive for CWD and now Stanton had a decision to make.
She could throw out the animal she’d harvested, field dressed, and partially processed, or she could finish packaging the meat and eat it anyway. The Centers for Disease Control and World Health Organization advise hunters like Stanton not to eat a CWD-positive animal. Plenty of hunters do anyway.
She briefly weighed her options, then chose not to risk it. So just like thousands of hunters from Wyoming to Saskatchewan to Pennsylvania have also done, she hauled the quarters to the landfill. Then she had another decision to make: Would she keep deer hunting knowing this could happen again?
As CWD continues to spread across the country and prevalence rates in some areas creep upwards, wildlife managers have asked similar questions of hunters.
Will hunters quit buying deer tags because they’re concerned about getting CWD? And, will hunters hang it up after they’ve shot a few CWD-infected deer that wind up in a landfill?
(There is a video here below about Michigan's overpopulation of deer.)
Recommended video: Seeing more deer? Here's why. (WLNS Lansing)
View on Watch
(We just talked about him in this thread. He works for the US Geological Survey and thinks the numbers of deer in this country need to be made lower.)
“Human dimensions work suggests pretty clearly that at some point, when prevalence gets high, and I don’t know that there’s a pure definition of that, but when prevalence gets into 30 percent or 40 percent, either hunters or their families will alter their behavior,” he says. “At some point you go, ‘this is no longer worth it.’”
(In this thread we talked about human dimensions or Cornell University doing studies on hunters' behaviors.)
Surveys by Responsive Management, a research firm specializing in natural resource and outdoor recreation issues, have found that when the disease is discovered in a new location, license sales and participation drop, but they usually creep back up, says Mark Damien Duda, the company’s executive director.
Hunters have what he describes as a moderate level of concern, which is somewhere between head-in-the-sand pretending CWD doesn’t exist and being afraid to touch a piece of venison regardless of where it came from or if it was tested. People also tend to trust their state fish and game agencies, taking their lead.
(bravo, Responsive Management is funded by a Multistate Conservation Grant from the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies. Three paragraphs in a row, the narrative of this article is controlled.)
On the flip side, Richards says plenty of people still knowingly eat animals that test positive.
Most survey respondents from a group of hunters in Wisconsin with CWD-positive deer said they planned to eat the venison, Richards says. A retired Wyoming wildlife disease specialist once told me that many hunters responded to positive CWD results by saying, “Thanks, I’m eating it anyway.” The caveat, he says, is those hunters were unwilling to feed CWD-infected meat to their children and grandchildren.
Richards often gives talks at sporting clubs and hunting groups about the possible danger of the disease and watches as people nod along.
“Then I’m done and walking outside and see three or four people are out there talking about CWD having a cigarette,” he says. “The messaging about tobacco use is pretty darned clear as well, but a lot of people have made a choice not to follow that health guidance. It’s all about risk tolerance.”
Read Next: Does Chronic Wasting Disease Infect Humans? Despite Shocking Headlines, Recent Research Suggests It Does Not
He’s found that even after decades of public information campaigns around CWD there still tends to be a general lack of awareness. One survey respondent said he wasn’t worried about CWD in venison because he always cooked his meat thoroughly. He appeared not to know, or understand, that prions can’t be destroyed through cooking.
While CWD messaging needs to continue, says Kip Adams, the chief conservation officer of the National Deer Association, many more hunters now understand CWD is a real disease wreaking havoc on deer populations. But health concerns aren’t making people stop hunting on a large scale.
“We hear stories about how Bob won’t hunt anymore because his wife won’t let him bring venison home,” Adams says. “But I don’t think that’s valid for a large number of hunters.”
CWD prevalence rates in some areas of the west have surpassed 50 percent. Photo by John Hafner© Provided by Outdoor Life
Fear of contracting the disease isn’t the only factor when hunters decide to continue — or stop — chasing deer. While many of us hunt for the tradition, camaraderie, and challenge that deer hunting brings, many others hunt mostly to fill their freezer with venison. In areas with high CWD prevalence, this becomes an issue of time, effort, and expense, when ultimately, the meat might end up in a landfill.
For example, a successful Western mule deer hunt can take all season, and states like Wyoming don’t provide a replacement tag for an animal that tests positive. Some herds in the state have prevalence rates as high as 65 percent, which means as many as six in 10 hunters each year could shoot a CWD positive buck.
In a state like Wyoming, which has plenty of public land, resident hunters could theoretically go somewhere else with lower prevalence rates.
Head east and the situation flips. Wisconsin replaces whitetail deer tags if hunters shoot a CWD-positive animal. But switching hunting areas in the Midwest and South becomes more challenging as plenty of whitetail hunters are locked into pricey hunting properties that they own or lease. Some families have hunted the same ground for generations.
“We hear anecdotes from hunters or landowners that after they’ve shot their fourth positive [deer] in a row in four years and thrown it away, that it’s hard to justify the money when they’re leasing the land,” Richards says. “If your family has been hunting in an area for 40 to 50 years and it’s a CWD zone, it’s really hard to pick up and move.”
State wildlife agencies don’t have comprehensive surveys on why hunter numbers have dropped. Likely reasons vary from lack of interest, access issues, and too many activities competing for attention. Could it also be that ick factor Richards referenced, or diminished appetite for throwing away meat?
He often circles back to how surveys show people say they’ll quit if they keep shooting positive deer, but “no states have proof other than license sales are dropping.”
For example, Wisconsin has lost about 60,000 deer hunters over the last 10 years, according to a report in the Washington County Daily News. Wisconsin has had CWD for decades and many counties have recorded prevalence rates above 20 percent. However state wildlife officials can’t tie the decline in hunting to the rise in CWD with so many other factors also in play (like Baby Boomers aging out of hunting).
Unfortunately, Richards says, quitting hunting because of CWD fears is likely the worst possible response for ultimately controlling the disease’s spread and prevalence rates. CWD spreads quickest when deer densities are highest. Cut down on the number of deer swapping snot, and that will reduce the number of deer with the disease.
It’s why Doug Duren, a Wisconsin landowner who’s been vocal in the fight against CWD, brings as many people as possible to hunt on his 600-acre family farm, which has a 30 percent prevalence rate. Last year, hunters killed a total of 47 deer on his place. He shot only one.
“I’m not that interested in hunting and killing stuff anymore,” he says. “But we have the opportunity to manage CWD, and if we don’t, Mother Nature is going to do it for us, and she’s pretty indiscriminate.”
As Duren sees it, the deer are going to die, either from a bullet or a horrible disease. He figures a bullet is better.
That’s also why Stanton, the Wyoming hunter, is also going to keep hunting deer. While she hated to throw away meat from an animal she harvested, she also knew she saved that buck from years of inevitable suffering and kept it from spreading the disease to other deer.
“I don’t know if [more deer] keep coming up positive if I would switch places or not,” she says. “But I do think we should do our part by harvesting deer and getting them tested to see if they’re CWD positive so we have more data. I’m afraid it’s more widespread than we know.”
Outdoor Life
Are Chronic Wasting Disease Fears Making People Quit Deer Hunting?
Wyoming hunter Meg Stanton had to reread her mule deer’s chronic wasting disease results a couple times. The four-point buck she had shot in an old burn scar last fall had looked healthy. It showed no signs of disease. But the test came back positive for CWD and now Stanton had a decision to make.
She could throw out the animal she’d harvested, field dressed, and partially processed, or she could finish packaging the meat and eat it anyway. The Centers for Disease Control and World Health Organization advise hunters like Stanton not to eat a CWD-positive animal. Plenty of hunters do anyway.
She briefly weighed her options, then chose not to risk it. So just like thousands of hunters from Wyoming to Saskatchewan to Pennsylvania have also done, she hauled the quarters to the landfill. Then she had another decision to make: Would she keep deer hunting knowing this could happen again?
As CWD continues to spread across the country and prevalence rates in some areas creep upwards, wildlife managers have asked similar questions of hunters.
Will hunters quit buying deer tags because they’re concerned about getting CWD? And, will hunters hang it up after they’ve shot a few CWD-infected deer that wind up in a landfill?
(There is a video here below about Michigan's overpopulation of deer.)
View on Watch
How Hunters Think About CWD Risk
Bryan Richards, the emerging disease coordinator at the National Wildlife Health Center, says there’s an “ick” factor when it comes to CWD and venison.(We just talked about him in this thread. He works for the US Geological Survey and thinks the numbers of deer in this country need to be made lower.)
“Human dimensions work suggests pretty clearly that at some point, when prevalence gets high, and I don’t know that there’s a pure definition of that, but when prevalence gets into 30 percent or 40 percent, either hunters or their families will alter their behavior,” he says. “At some point you go, ‘this is no longer worth it.’”
(In this thread we talked about human dimensions or Cornell University doing studies on hunters' behaviors.)
Surveys by Responsive Management, a research firm specializing in natural resource and outdoor recreation issues, have found that when the disease is discovered in a new location, license sales and participation drop, but they usually creep back up, says Mark Damien Duda, the company’s executive director.
Hunters have what he describes as a moderate level of concern, which is somewhere between head-in-the-sand pretending CWD doesn’t exist and being afraid to touch a piece of venison regardless of where it came from or if it was tested. People also tend to trust their state fish and game agencies, taking their lead.
(bravo, Responsive Management is funded by a Multistate Conservation Grant from the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies. Three paragraphs in a row, the narrative of this article is controlled.)
On the flip side, Richards says plenty of people still knowingly eat animals that test positive.
Most survey respondents from a group of hunters in Wisconsin with CWD-positive deer said they planned to eat the venison, Richards says. A retired Wyoming wildlife disease specialist once told me that many hunters responded to positive CWD results by saying, “Thanks, I’m eating it anyway.” The caveat, he says, is those hunters were unwilling to feed CWD-infected meat to their children and grandchildren.
Richards often gives talks at sporting clubs and hunting groups about the possible danger of the disease and watches as people nod along.
“Then I’m done and walking outside and see three or four people are out there talking about CWD having a cigarette,” he says. “The messaging about tobacco use is pretty darned clear as well, but a lot of people have made a choice not to follow that health guidance. It’s all about risk tolerance.”
Read Next: Does Chronic Wasting Disease Infect Humans? Despite Shocking Headlines, Recent Research Suggests It Does Not
He’s found that even after decades of public information campaigns around CWD there still tends to be a general lack of awareness. One survey respondent said he wasn’t worried about CWD in venison because he always cooked his meat thoroughly. He appeared not to know, or understand, that prions can’t be destroyed through cooking.
While CWD messaging needs to continue, says Kip Adams, the chief conservation officer of the National Deer Association, many more hunters now understand CWD is a real disease wreaking havoc on deer populations. But health concerns aren’t making people stop hunting on a large scale.
“We hear stories about how Bob won’t hunt anymore because his wife won’t let him bring venison home,” Adams says. “But I don’t think that’s valid for a large number of hunters.”
A Problem for Meat Hunters
CWD prevalence rates in some areas of the west have surpassed 50 percent. Photo by John Hafner© Provided by Outdoor Life
Fear of contracting the disease isn’t the only factor when hunters decide to continue — or stop — chasing deer. While many of us hunt for the tradition, camaraderie, and challenge that deer hunting brings, many others hunt mostly to fill their freezer with venison. In areas with high CWD prevalence, this becomes an issue of time, effort, and expense, when ultimately, the meat might end up in a landfill.
For example, a successful Western mule deer hunt can take all season, and states like Wyoming don’t provide a replacement tag for an animal that tests positive. Some herds in the state have prevalence rates as high as 65 percent, which means as many as six in 10 hunters each year could shoot a CWD positive buck.
In a state like Wyoming, which has plenty of public land, resident hunters could theoretically go somewhere else with lower prevalence rates.
Head east and the situation flips. Wisconsin replaces whitetail deer tags if hunters shoot a CWD-positive animal. But switching hunting areas in the Midwest and South becomes more challenging as plenty of whitetail hunters are locked into pricey hunting properties that they own or lease. Some families have hunted the same ground for generations.
“We hear anecdotes from hunters or landowners that after they’ve shot their fourth positive [deer] in a row in four years and thrown it away, that it’s hard to justify the money when they’re leasing the land,” Richards says. “If your family has been hunting in an area for 40 to 50 years and it’s a CWD zone, it’s really hard to pick up and move.”
Hunters Are Needed in the Fight Against CWD
In more than 30 years of studying CWD, hunting deer with CWD, and talking about CWD, Richards knows these two things: Hunting is one of the best ways to help fight the disease, and hunter numbers are decreasing.State wildlife agencies don’t have comprehensive surveys on why hunter numbers have dropped. Likely reasons vary from lack of interest, access issues, and too many activities competing for attention. Could it also be that ick factor Richards referenced, or diminished appetite for throwing away meat?
He often circles back to how surveys show people say they’ll quit if they keep shooting positive deer, but “no states have proof other than license sales are dropping.”
For example, Wisconsin has lost about 60,000 deer hunters over the last 10 years, according to a report in the Washington County Daily News. Wisconsin has had CWD for decades and many counties have recorded prevalence rates above 20 percent. However state wildlife officials can’t tie the decline in hunting to the rise in CWD with so many other factors also in play (like Baby Boomers aging out of hunting).
Unfortunately, Richards says, quitting hunting because of CWD fears is likely the worst possible response for ultimately controlling the disease’s spread and prevalence rates. CWD spreads quickest when deer densities are highest. Cut down on the number of deer swapping snot, and that will reduce the number of deer with the disease.
It’s why Doug Duren, a Wisconsin landowner who’s been vocal in the fight against CWD, brings as many people as possible to hunt on his 600-acre family farm, which has a 30 percent prevalence rate. Last year, hunters killed a total of 47 deer on his place. He shot only one.
“I’m not that interested in hunting and killing stuff anymore,” he says. “But we have the opportunity to manage CWD, and if we don’t, Mother Nature is going to do it for us, and she’s pretty indiscriminate.”
As Duren sees it, the deer are going to die, either from a bullet or a horrible disease. He figures a bullet is better.
That’s also why Stanton, the Wyoming hunter, is also going to keep hunting deer. While she hated to throw away meat from an animal she harvested, she also knew she saved that buck from years of inevitable suffering and kept it from spreading the disease to other deer.
“I don’t know if [more deer] keep coming up positive if I would switch places or not,” she says. “But I do think we should do our part by harvesting deer and getting them tested to see if they’re CWD positive so we have more data. I’m afraid it’s more widespread than we know.”
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That along with access and a decline in habitat and critters. ND hunting has really declined the last 10 years IMO. A lot of that decline is a direct result of declining habitat, game animals and access.
NDSportsman: You are 100% on the mark!!
I am sportsman who believes federal government oversight is why we have problems so far, had wildlife been allowed.to be managed by state and local authorities witbout federal funding tbat comes with beurocratical string attached, perhaps we wouldn't have the issue we have now. Sportsman and landowners could work together like in the past to help maintain habitat that has been destroyed.
We can access many threads like this one where it wasn't too long ago that the peanut gallery swore that lack of habitat had nothing to do with declining deer numbers. Now we discuss problems like electronic posting,.cwd and whatever is the next obstacle.
With all these threads on this subject cwd, there isn't absolutely no conclusive middle ground for us to meet at to figure this out before we continue to allow federal influence to cull herds of wildlife because there is too many or a dead deer was found in a unit where again federal influence remedy is to cull the herd.
Then you get the ssue where less hunters are taking deer and population explosions take over habitat that was once open for milesonly to be developed by real estate.
No where in this emotional rambling did I ever think I was the cause of all this chaos when all I want to do is draw my one tag so i can do my part my thinning the deer herd.
We can access many threads like this one where it wasn't too long ago that the peanut gallery swore that lack of habitat had nothing to do with declining deer numbers. Now we discuss problems like electronic posting,.cwd and whatever is the next obstacle.
With all these threads on this subject cwd, there isn't absolutely no conclusive middle ground for us to meet at to figure this out before we continue to allow federal influence to cull herds of wildlife because there is too many or a dead deer was found in a unit where again federal influence remedy is to cull the herd.
Then you get the ssue where less hunters are taking deer and population explosions take over habitat that was once open for milesonly to be developed by real estate.
No where in this emotional rambling did I ever think I was the cause of all this chaos when all I want to do is draw my one tag so i can do my part my thinning the deer herd.
Fester
★★★★★ Legendary Member
You just legally steal people's money(grants) for a living? What a stand up guy you are.
I don't think threatening or bringing family into anything is acceptable. I may not approve of what you do but your family and kids can't help your downfalls and should never have to deal with things like that.
I guess I’m not sure what you mean. Our chapter has never applied for a grant, or taken grant money, from any grant program…ever.
However, we certainly would if the right situation presented itself, and I wouldn’t feel bad about it at all (for example the Bismarck boat ramp).
Just for anyone who may not know.
Grant programs are already funded, preemptively, before any funds are actually “granted”. So, that pool of money is already sitting there. For instance, the ND outdoor heritage fund is funded legislatively, those funds are capped at a certain amount every biennium, and applications/projects must meet certain objectives in order to qualify. Even then money can’t be spent on certain things, and the application still needs to be awarded by the OHF board. So if even you qualify, there’s no guarantee you’ll be awarded a grant. But the money is already there.
Fester
★★★★★ Legendary Member
First of all I think we have covered this before...if there were no beggers there would be no grants..grant money comes from tax payors! My question to you is where does your group get money, straight donations from the people?
and yet…..
Some does. But some comes from industry taxes. The land and water conservation fund is a grant program funded by offshore oil and gas royalties. Similarly, the ND outdoor heritage fund is funded by an oil and gas production tax. Your broad, black and white statements are often inaccurate.
100% of our chapter’s bank account consists of membership money, donations, and volunteer led chapter fundraisers/raffles.
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