Bis to lose boat ramp

[NodakBob]

Good grief…you guys owe me a half hour of personal time for wasting my time perusing this topic…lol

 

[BrockW]

I havent hunted over bait in over 10 yrs, I am neutral on baiting and have no bias towards baiting.

Same here. Though I have helped my buddies fill their feeders during that time. So does that make me biased for baiting?

I think you’re being illogical. If his study was done specifically on baiting, and it was severely flawed or not able to pass the rigors of peer review, I would agree with you. Peer review is usually pretty good at spotting bias in results.

However, in reality, Kreeger’s study had nothing to do with baiting. He had a facility where they were conducting research on CWD positive elk. To test environmental and horizontal transmission, he simply put 39 naive elk in where the previously infected study elk had lived. Within 3 years, 37 of the 39 elk died from end stage CWD. Keep in mind elk regularly live into their teens and cow elk get into the upper teens. The last 2 died in the subsequent 2 years. Again, all 39 clinical end stage CWD.

I sent that same study to Mr. Backer who runs the “Chronic Wasting Dis ease” FB page. The next day he made a post saying how CWD isn’t contagious. Literally, like the day after I shared that study with him he posted this.

Again, I’m not arguing with you. I don’t expect you or them to change your minds. I’ve dealt with enough of the CWD is a conspiracy folks to know that’s a useless game.

I just want good, factual information, the truth to get out there and be seen by North Dakotans, and I know this conversation and these posts will get seen by many folks. So mission accomplished for me, regardless of what you think.

 

[Trip McNeely]

FWIW, I don't get to decide if the project is a "done deal". I'm just saying that if it is, then there needs to be a replacement ramp. And no, an expansion of Fox Island isn't adding a new ramp in my world. The Mandan ramp is new, but is not a replacement ramp for the Grant Marsh ramp IMHO.

Ok ok truce. Maybe I’m reading how you present things wrong. Is it the comprehension or how it’s presented… or both Either way we’re not on the same wavelength even though I think we’re in semi agreement about the issue. And I agree if they are going add an actual new ramp to replace it better be an actual new location not just extra ramps at other locations

 

[Trip McNeely]

Good grief…you guys owe me a half hour of personal time for wasting my time perusing this topic…lol

That’s your fault for continuing to read

 

[Average_NDA_Member]

Hmmm nope first of all good work boys turnin this into a covid talk we need to be spreadin that word every chance we get second all these studies that show cwd is bad are done by lib folks who hate huntin and baitin therefore they are biased and you shouldnt believe them now the studies that show that CWD ain’t real are just fine since they wouldn’t take money from big ag or other orgs with an interest and also all projects on public land should be run by private companies so a select few of us can enjoy them and finally brockw I don’t know why you think you can come in here with your lib talk trying to improve hunting and angling oppertunities we don’t care bout that round here we like to break things down into lib and not lib so thanks for your input but we’ll just sit here mad on the internet thank you very much

 

[Boondoggle]

The images below are concepts, not actual proposals. Just some ideas that were put together to get people thinking about what might be possible for utilizing and expanding these areas. The core idea and goal is increasing parking and adding an additional ramp to each location.
Fox Island

Kniefel Landing

Brock, thanks for sharing the concepts to expand Fox Island and Kniefel ramps. Is the concept to construct a public marina at Pioneer Park still alive?

 

[BrockW]

Brock, thanks for sharing the concepts to expand Fox Island and Kniefel ramps. Is the concept to construct a public marina at Pioneer Park still alive?

To my knowledge that’s not a priority in the near future and in my opinion is unlikely to happen. It’s not impossible, but it would be many years away.

I do question the value of it, as based on the location I have a feeling it would be a hefty dredging bill on a regular basis to keep it open. But perhaps I’m wrong about that.

The one thing I know for sure about it, is that it would be EXPENSIVE! 10s of millions to make happen. That’s everything I know about it.

 

[Boondoggle]

To my knowledge that’s not a priority in the near future and in my opinion is unlikely to happen. It’s not impossible, but it would be many years away.

I do question the value of it, as based on the location I have a feeling it would be a hefty dredging bill on a regular basis to keep it open. But perhaps I’m wrong about that.

The one thing I know for sure about it, is that it would be EXPENSIVE! 10s of millions to make happen. That’s everything I know about it.

You think the proposed Pioneer Park marina concept is unlikely to happen? Why do you question the value of their proposed Pioneer Park marina? As for expensive, every project proposed in their riverfront vision is expensive, but the proposed Pioneer Park public marina would have public benefit, equal to the existing Keelboat Park.

It appears to me the only thing that is a priority and feasible with this boondoggle is the land transfer and "free" state grant money for a non-profit to build....a park under a bridge.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Brock Wahl here from North Dakota BHA. I was notified of Slappys post and wanted to make sure the correct information was put out since I think he is twisting some information and not providing the necessary context. People are certainly free to come to their own conclusions.

In terms of legal recourse, that is certainly an option slappy and others may pursue. Based on our consultations, that will be a giant waste of time, money, and energy. Fort Abraham Lincoln Foundation has checked all the boxes and obtained necessary grants/funding, commission votes, etc.

In our opinion, this means that if the city commission was to reverse course on their previous approving vote of this project, FALF would likely have a good case to sue the city for going back on their decision. A potential hefty legal bill for the tax payer.

So, the facts are what they are. At this point, our chapter doesn’t support or oppose this project. Not because we don’t have an opinion, but because based on our discussions with project stakeholders, it’s too late for any stance we take to mean much or do anything productive other than just be angry and obnoxious. With respect to the rest of the community and the many people who supported this project, we don’t feel that is a wise use of our energy. Instead, we’d like to pursue a way forward where anglers get something in return.

Additionally, public input/engagement processes began in 2018 and went all the way into 2023. From what I’ve seen and been told, there was a grand total of 3 mentions of the boat ramp during that period, and many more comments than that in support of the project. So anglers, including those like myself who use that boat ramp, missed our opportunity to weigh in with our objections or alternatives.

I will take partial blame for this. Our chapter was just getting off the ground in 2018 and city projects like this were just not on our radar for things to monitor. That’s not an excuse, we try not to miss anything, but in this case we just missed it. Like many anglers, we didn’t catch it until it was too late and the project was in the final stages before construction.

The meaning of this meeting was not to raise hell and get the project stopped. It was to gather input on how to move forward in a productive manner. Complaining on Facebook, or showing up and interrupting public meetings to shout rude things from the crowd offers no value and nothing constructive other than making anglers look bad. I had to convince stakeholders that anglers could come to the table and be productive to make this meeting happen, because many angling folks were the opposite of productive in the planning meetings earlier this year(after the project had received all approvals and funding necessary to move forward).

Slappy(if he is who I think he is) and a couple others, almost made the meeting completely useless. Luckily, there was a few there who saw the writing on the wall and were reasonable people willing to move forward and find a way to still get some benefit to area anglers.

So what’s next? I already have a meeting scheduled with the Bismarck Parks and Rec, Burleigh county, ND game and fish, and the city of Bismarck to talk about improving/expanding Fox Island boat ramp and Kneifel Landing boat ramp. If things fall the way I’d like with those stake holders, I will be going to the 2025 legislature to obtain the rest of the funding through a sovereign lands grant. Hopefully, this time next year the money has been obtained to make significant expansions to both of those ramps in both parking and additional ramps.

My chapter and I see this as a much more productive and respectful path forward than other approaches previously mentioned, I.e. using outrage and anger. Considering the public support this project had, I doubt complaining to legislators will be very productive as we will likely be out numbered if project supporters get wind of it and start writing in.

My intent with this post is just to inform the public of our assessment of the situation and our action plan moving forward. To make some lemonade out of lemons is indeed the way I would describe it. It’s not ideal, it’s not perfect for anglers, we wish we could go back to 2018 and get a redo, but it is what it is and we’re going to be men about it.

So, our opinion is let’s do what we can to get something out of this and get some significant improvements to 2 other ramps and welcome the addition of the Mandan ramp as well.

Thanks for reading this lengthy post and let me know if you have any questions.

I see the Abraham Lincoln Foundation is still at it. They tried a similar move called the Northern Plains Natural Heritage Area. Effecting 500,000 acres along the Missouri River counties Burleigh, McLean, Mercer, Morton, and Oliver. $10 million for:

• Increase recognition of unique resources.

• Development of a strong sense of place.

• Linking of resources to improve management.

• New opportunities for funding and partnerships.

• Sustainable place-based economic development.

• Balanced preservation and promotion.

Northern Plains Heritage Foundation Director and North Dakota State Senator Tracy Potter organized a lobbying effort to get the designation by the US Congress without disclosing such efforts to the IRS, which is required by law. He also convinced a congressional subcommittee, in 2007, that such a designation had widespread public support, when it did not.

Well, Tracey Potter used federal grant money to fly to DC to lobby for more federal grant money. And then the shit hit the fan.

http://dakotabeacon.com/entry/northern_plains_national_heritage_area_and_you_did_not_know_it/

The Abraham Lincoln Foundation hasn't changed its spots. How to is in the article. Form town hall public meetings.

 

[Bfishn]

Bismarck doesn't need another marina, we need ramps on the river channel like the existing one. Marinas are frozen over and unusable during the main spring fishing period when all the ramps are full. There is literally no other alternative to this ramp that will make up for it. Anyone who thinks there is one that will be completed anytime in the next decade or more are kidding themselves.

 

[BrockW]

I see the Abraham Lincoln Foundation is still at it. They tried a similar move called the Northern Plains Natural Heritage Area. Effecting 500,000 acres along the Missouri River counties Burleigh, McLean, Mercer, Morton, and Oliver. $10 million for:

• Increase recognition of unique resources.

• Development of a strong sense of place.

• Linking of resources to improve management.

• New opportunities for funding and partnerships.

• Sustainable place-based economic development.

• Balanced preservation and promotion.

Northern Plains Heritage Foundation Director and North Dakota State Senator Tracy Potter organized a lobbying effort to get the designation by the US Congress without disclosing such efforts to the IRS, which is required by law. He also convinced a congressional subcommittee, in 2007, that such a designation had widespread public support, when it did not.

Well, Tracey Potter used federal grant money to fly to DC to lobby for more federal grant money. And then the shit hit the fan.

http://dakotabeacon.com/entry/northern_plains_national_heritage_area_and_you_did_not_know_it/

The Abraham Lincoln Foundation hasn't changed its spots. How to is in the article. Form town hall public meetings.

Oh I think it would be far more than “equal” to keelboat, at least in terms of access. More so in the summer than spring fishing. I absolutely agree that it would serve public benefit. 100% with you on that. But look at the pushback and criticism that a comparatively simple boat ramp expansion is getting from anglers who would actually benefit from it.

So, part of my opinion is just based on the sentiment you see on this forum, but no doubt that similar fiscal rhetoric manifests itself in other areas of the public as well. I share some of those concerns myself.

I could be wrong, maybe Bismarck residents and decision makers will jump at the opportunity to drop 15-20 million, maybe more, on a public marina. Not to mention all of the maintenance and costs associated with it, including an unknown, but perhaps annual cost of significant dredging to make the marina accessible and useable? Certainly, that is possible. But, I don’t think the city or county governments have the stomach to try and pay for that with the current conversations around spending. Again, maybe I’m wrong. So like I said, I think it’s likely this idea gets revisited (or basically forgotten) in 10ish years.

Another thing to consider, since there is no existing infrastructure there, the permitting process would likely be difficult. At least with keelboat, fox island, Kniefel, there is existing infrastructure. Which makes permitting a heck of a lot easier. Mandan had to pull some strings and jump through some hoops for the new Mandan ramp to make approval a reality. Likely a very different conversation if they were shooting for an all out Marina. I could see a multi year permitting process for that. Again, maybe I’m wrong.

Yes, they’re all expensive, but not apples to apples. My understanding is that the hotel project, if approved or supported, was going to look for a private investor. Not to say that they wouldn’t have had their handout looking for some type of public money too, investors are always wanting incentive to come build a project like that in some shape or form. But my understanding was the bulk of that was going to be paid for by private funds. I mean, I would assume we would be talking 50 million, maybe more? That’s just a wild guess. But a boat load of money for a “boutique” (aka fancy) hotel. I doubt Bismarck residents would’ve wanted to fork over money for that given other variables of much higher need throughout the rest of the city. Needs that one could probably argue would drive much better resident satisfaction and economic value than a boutique hotel on the river.

 

[Obi-Wan]

Oh I think it would be far more than “equal” to keelboat, at least in terms of access. More so in the summer than spring fishing. I absolutely agree that it would serve public benefit. 100% with you on that. But look at the pushback and criticism that a comparatively simple boat ramp expansion is getting from anglers who would actually benefit from it.

So, part of my opinion is just based on the sentiment you see on this forum, but no doubt that similar fiscal rhetoric manifests itself in other areas of the public as well. I share some of those concerns myself.

I could be wrong, maybe Bismarck residents and decision makers will jump at the opportunity to drop 15-20 million, maybe more, on a public marina. Not to mention all of the maintenance and costs associated with it, including an unknown, but perhaps annual cost of significant dredging to make the marina accessible and useable? Certainly, that is possible. But, I don’t think the city or county governments have the stomach to try and pay for that with the current conversations around spending. Again, maybe I’m wrong. So like I said, I think it’s likely this idea gets revisited (or basically forgotten) in 10ish years.

Another thing to consider, since there is no existing infrastructure there, the permitting process would likely be difficult. At least with keelboat, fox island, Kniefel, there is existing infrastructure. Which makes permitting a heck of a lot easier. Mandan had to pull some strings and jump through some hoops for the new Mandan ramp to make approval a reality. Likely a very different conversation if they were shooting for an all out Marina. I could see a multi year permitting process for that. Again, maybe I’m wrong.

Yes, they’re all expensive, but not apples to apples. My understanding is that the hotel project, if approved or supported, was going to look for a private investor. Not to say that they wouldn’t have had their handout looking for some type of public money too, investors are always wanting incentive to come build a project like that in some shape or form. But my understanding was the bulk of that was going to be paid for by private funds. I mean, I would assume we would be talking 50 million, maybe more? That’s just a wild guess. But a boat load of money for a “boutique” (aka fancy) hotel. I doubt Bismarck residents would’ve wanted to fork over money for that given other variables of much higher need throughout the rest of the city. Needs that one could probably argue would drive much better resident satisfaction and economic value than a boutique hotel on the river.

The push back is on losing the existing boat ramp not expanding the remaining one.

How much money would the taxpayers have saved if they would have left the exiting ramp in place???

So we lose a public boat ramp for a private venture because there was existing infrastructure already in place, which was placed there with public money but now will benefit the private venture.

What is in place to keep the Abraham Lincoln foundation from selling the property now that it has been turned over to them ?

 

[Fester]

The push back is on losing the existing boat ramp not expanding the remaining one.

How much money would the taxpayers have saved if they would have left the exiting ramp in place???

So we lose a public boat ramp for a private venture because there was existing infrastructure already in place, which was placed there with public money but now will benefit the private venture.

What is in place to keep the Abraham Lincoln foundation from selling the property now that it has been turned over to them ?

Shhhhh we don't want to talk about financials.......

 

[BrockW]

The push back is on losing the existing boat ramp not expanding the remaining one.

There’s plenty of that too. Which is understandable.

How much money would the taxpayers have saved if they would have left the exiting ramp in place???

What is in place to keep the Abraham Lincoln foundation from selling the property now that it has been turned over to them ?

These seem like questions for the city, city commission, etc. I didn’t write, read, or sign those agreements/contracts.

I will update estimated costs for the boat ramp expansions when I have numbers for those, as I promised earlier. Those are the only numbers I’ll be able to get you. In part because it’s irrelevant to me how much money it saved or didn’t save. I’m pursuing expansions and improvements on Fox Island and Kniefel.

So we lose a public boat ramp for a private venture because there was existing infrastructure already in place, which was placed there with public money but now will benefit the private venture.

Existing infrastructure might not have made a difference? If it was undeveloped the city might still have donated it to them? I couldn’t tell you. It will be free and open to the public, so I would doubt the FALF is gonna make a killing off this place. Not sure how they’d make a ton of money on it.