hunting ethics

[sweeney]

I think it is an out of sight out of mind thing for a lot of people, how many people shoot something and don't get to watch it drop immediately? Those animal's probably go through more than this bull did. How many of the people posting about shooting it again, will leave a deer overnight to expire from a liver shot or single lung, to possibly be chased or even eaten by coyotes? As hunters this isn't the battle that needs to be happening by calling these guys out IMHO they did everything right except the video part.

I personally wouldn't have shot it again once it was down like that i am not ruining any of that good cornfed moose with another bullet, nor am i trying to slit the throat of a once in a lifetime bull moose. However i probably wouldn't have videoed it expiring like that either, but that is the honesty and truth of hunting, you are taking the life of an animal for food, sport, or whatever means you justify it as. As many deer as a guy sees running around on 3 legs or with arrows in them, i can't see any reason to get on these guys case for making an awesome shot on a bull moose using what was around to stabilize his shot.

 

[guywhofishes]

If you are going to film something like this and post it on the internet, you as a hunter have an obligation to make sure its above reproach. The anti hunting crowd doesn't need more ammunition to use.

That was my thought when my critique comment got deleted.... "OK fool, go ahead and let this video live on, with nobody pointing out its flaws"

with almost nothing to gain - and so much to potentially lose - for both the video dude and the FB page's reputation.

it's sorta baffling really.

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I think it is an out of sight out of mind thing for a lot of people, how many people shoot something and don't get to watch it drop immediately? Those animal's probably go through more than this bull did. How many of the people posting about shooting it again, will leave a deer overnight to expire from a liver shot or single lung, to possibly be chased or even eaten by coyotes? As hunters this isn't the battle that needs to be happening by calling these guys out IMHO they did everything right except the video part.

I personally wouldn't have shot it again once it was down like that i am not ruining any of that good cornfed moose with another bullet, nor am i trying to slit the throat of a once in a lifetime bull moose. However i probably wouldn't have videoed it expiring like that either, but that is the honesty and truth of hunting, you are taking the life of an animal for food, sport, or whatever means you justify it as. As many deer as a guy sees running around on 3 legs or with arrows in them, i can't see any reason to get on these guys case for making an awesome shot on a bull moose using what was around to stabilize his shot.

wow, surprising take

couldn't disagree more but appreciate you weighing in

the archery "wait after the shot" part rings partly true for me - but the long wait is out of necessity for assuring recovery - not to save a few pounds of a freaking ginormous animal

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also - you must live in the outdoors or hang around some "rough" territory if you're seeing a lot of three legged deer and deer with arrows running around

 

[NPO_Aaron]

This is going to be a long one. I filmed this hunt (not edited).

First thing I want to address is the four wheeler. It was no more a “vehicle” in this situation than a post used to rest a gun on. If we would have driven it out into the field, hopped off, then shot, that would absolutely have been a problem. The law says you cannot be in or on a vehicle. In this case the vehicle was a “fixed object”. I spoke to G&F to clarify and they shared my sentiment.

Secondly and most importantly, the story telling in this video missed the mark. I am going to be posting my version in a couple of weeks and it will more accurately show what happens in the last few minutes.

Here is the quick run down. The bull fell in the tall cattails and we weren’t able to find it right away. About 15 minutes later we walked up on it still alive. It got up, took two steps towards me and then fell again. Tyler walked up to the moose and quickly shot it in the heart. This was all done before what you see in his video. The bull continued to move for about 30 seconds after the heart shot. I wish he would have included that footage in his video, because without it, the scene seems off. (When we cleaned the bull both lungs were shot and the entire bottom of the heart was blown out.) The issue here is poor storytelling and not poor ethics. If we had the opportunity to re-do that hunt I would do everything the exact same way. I can tell you, if any of you fellas were there with us, you would agree.

The biggest issue here is the way the story was told, it just wasn’t perfect. It missed some key parts at the end that would make everyone in this thread feel much better. The problem with filming hunts is that through editing you can pretty much craft the way the situation looks. In most cases, people do something less than desirable and make it look good. In this case it’s the exact opposite. Tyler did everything the right way. I’ll post my version when it’s done and I guarantee you will feel differently.

Lastly, I want to address this. “When hunting videos became popular, and Youtube took over, that was the start of the downfall of hunting.”

You couldn’t be more wrong with this sentiment. Do you know how many people (specifically teenage kids) have taken an interest in the outdoors because of the youtube hunting and fishing community? The “downfall of hunting” is people who think that the way they do things is gospel and everyone else is ruining their game. The “downfall” is all the armchair perfect outdoorsmen who have never missed a shot or made a single mistake, that crush new people as soon as they try.
Most of us who film our hunts just want two things: 1. To have a memory that we get to keep forever and 2. To share our experiences with others. It’s that simple. This video misses something that I consider the most important out of it all. It doesn’t show the experience and emotion, it just shows an animal dying, and I hope that the 701 guys get better at that aspect of storytelling over time. As someone who films pretty much everything I do, my goal is to share my experience in a positive way and hopefully inspire someone else to give it a try.

 

[Jiffy]

Douche bags...

 

[guywhofishes]

thanks for responding Aaron - figured you might

please do include video of the dispatch shot in the next version

 

[NPO_Aaron]

If you're ever in Minot Jiffy, let's get a coffee and I'll show you why you're wrong.

 

[sweeney]

Yup, it's a different place out west, after the eastern side comes over.

 

[Wags2.0]

An argument could be made that no ND moose hunting videos should be made lol.

It’s not inspirational, shooting off an atv doesn’t capture determination or physical/mental exertion. Just a moose dying. Weird video to post for sure.

There’s some really good stuff on YouTube that teach hunting. I could care less about kill shots. I want to know how you got close, what made you move where you did, etc. (in this case - “we whipped the atv around so we were down wind” - lol)

 

[Jiffy]

If you're ever in Minot Jiffy, let's get a coffee and I'll show you why you're wrong.

\

Yeah that's a hard pass.

 

[NPO_Aaron]

thanks for responding Aaron - figured you might

please do include video of the dispatch shot in the next version

I will. Everything in this hunt was about as perfect as you could hope for.

Tyler is learning a bit of a lesson from this when it comes to filming and I'm sure what he makes in the future will be better for it, but the way he hunted this moose was as good as it gets. We spotted some bulls, planned a stalk, made the stalk, made a great shot, found the bull, (made a follow up shot), retrieved the bull.

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Yeah that's a hard pass.

Then it doesn't seem like I'm missing out! But, the offer always stands.

 

[Dirty]

I watched the video again after reading the explanation. Just as rough second time around IMO, and most people that watch it don’t get the luxury of the videographers explanation, which does help to add a little bit of context.

 

[guywhofishes]

BTW, I didn't hope for, or intend, for NPO or the video to be burned at the cross or otherwise "cancelled"

I was genuinely curious where I stood on the wild game dispatch empathy spectrum

it appears pretty close to center - which isn't good or bad - just interesting

 

[Dirty]

I think it is an out of sight out of mind thing for a lot of people, how many people shoot something and don't get to watch it drop immediately? Those animal's probably go through more than this bull did. How many of the people posting about shooting it again, will leave a deer overnight to expire from a liver shot or single lung, to possibly be chased or even eaten by coyotes? As hunters this isn't the battle that needs to be happening by calling these guys out IMHO they did everything right except the video part.

I personally wouldn't have shot it again once it was down like that i am not ruining any of that good cornfed moose with another bullet, nor am i trying to slit the throat of a once in a lifetime bull moose. However i probably wouldn't have videoed it expiring like that either, but that is the honesty and truth of hunting, you are taking the life of an animal for food, sport, or whatever means you justify it as. As many deer as a guy sees running around on 3 legs or with arrows in them, i can't see any reason to get on these guys case for making an awesome shot on a bull moose using what was around to stabilize his shot.

Hunting is killing - no doubt about it. It doesn’t always go as planned and you don’t always get the opportunity to diminish the amount of suffering after the shot…true. I wish it was always the perfect case scenario but it’s not.
But when you do get that chance, I don’t know how you can justify not taking it.

And if you are gonna video yourself not taking that chance or make a video that makes it REALLY look like you purposely did not take it, well WTF? That is a good reason to call someone out IMO. Also only IMO, Videos LIKE THAT are a part of the downfall of hunting but not the only issue by a long shot.

 

[NPO_Aaron]

I do want to clarify, this wasn't my video. I ran the cameras and sent tyler the footage. It was his bull, so I wanted him to make his version first. Mine will come out in a couple of weeks.

Like I said, he's learning a lot from this thread. I've been sending him links so he can take the constructive criticism.

 

[LBrandt]

If I walk up on an animal that I have shot and is still alive I dispatch as quickly as I can. LB

 

[remm]

That's a good bull. Didn't see anything illegal, wondered about the reason for the atv there is all. My editing probably would have cut from the shot and high fives to a staged walk up on a dead bull rather than seeing it's last gasps. I don't know much about videoing hunts, I usually forget to get my camera out until its picture time at the end but I'd be willing to bet most of the stuff a guy sees on TV is staged walking up to critters. If you hunt enough, you will most likely have to walk up to a wounded critter and dispatch it at some point, nobody feels good or is proud of it, just a fact of hunting. Congrats to the hunter.

 

[Skeeter]

If you video everything for your own memories, then plaster it all over social media, it no longer is your own memory. It’s seeking attention, kinda like a woman who puts on the brightest makeup so she will get noticed first and the most. So the whole “memory argument is invalid with me.

 

[NPO_Aaron]

If you video everything for your own memories, then plaster it all over social media, it no longer is your own memory. It’s seeking attention, kinda like a woman who puts on the brightest makeup so she will get noticed first and the most. So the whole “memory argument is invalid with me.

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. But just because you don't understand why someone else does something, doesn't make you right.

Assuming we want attention makes it seem like we think we're important. Fun fact, I don't. I'm a nobody who likes making hunting and fishing videos. Truth be told, I'm kindof antisocial and like to be by myself most of the time. I just really enjoy telling a story. I enjoy people feeling like they were there. And I love being able to look back on all the cool things I've been a part of over the last few years.

My coffee invite for Jiffy extends to you if you're ever around. People get mad about and talk down on things they don't understand. I'd love to help change your mind sometime.

 

[guywhofishes]

well, mission accomplished - ha ha

I felt like I was there - but it felt pretty icky

 

[wjschmaltz]

I think it is an out of sight out of mind thing for a lot of people, how many people shoot something and don't get to watch it drop immediately? Those animal's probably go through more than this bull did. How many of the people posting about shooting it again, will leave a deer overnight to expire from a liver shot or single lung, to possibly be chased or even eaten by coyotes? As hunters this isn't the battle that needs to be happening by calling these guys out IMHO they did everything right except the video part.

I personally wouldn't have shot it again once it was down like that i am not ruining any of that good cornfed moose with another bullet, nor am i trying to slit the throat of a once in a lifetime bull moose. However i probably wouldn't have videoed it expiring like that either, but that is the honesty and truth of hunting, you are taking the life of an animal for food, sport, or whatever means you justify it as. As many deer as a guy sees running around on 3 legs or with arrows in them, i can't see any reason to get on these guys case for making an awesome shot on a bull moose using what was around to stabilize his shot.

I have similar thoughts. I've seen a good pile of moose die now, and moose are not tough to kill, they just drag it out because of their size. The first moose I shot was shot simultaneously with a 300 and 375. It dropped in it's tracks but took another several minutes to die. I eventually shot it at the base of the neck from a few feet away because I didn't want to waste any more meat and it was simply hard to watch. The next moose I shot took 4-275 grain loads to the lungs. I didn't want a repeat of my first moose so instead of waiting a few minutes for it to die, I kept on shooting. All four shots were fatal, through the lungs, with excellent bullet expansion. The bull was standing on all four shots and wasn't going anywhere after the first. I wasn't going to try shooting it in the neck and potentially waste more meat and the slitting of the throat suggestion is laughable. Probably more than 100 lbs of meat was wasted because I didn't want to watch it die for a few minutes. So which is worse and less ethical? Wasting 100 lbs of meat and killing quickly or letting the moose "suffer" for a couple minutes?

No one in their right mind would ever walk up to a moose with 50 inch antlers swinging around and 6 foot long legs that could easily kill you and think they're going to cut the throat of that thing. I grew up in a butcher shop. Shot and cut the throat on probably thousands of animals. Even in a controlled environmental with a well placed head shot, we always tied off horns.

Full disclaimer, I didn't watch the video. Simply not my style of moose hunting so don't really plan to. But I don't see the issue here being what the ethical number of follow up shots needs to be. That is subjective and the responsibility of defining those ethics falls on the shoulders of the hunter. The problem is here that once you put it online for the world to see, the responsibility of defining those ethics will be taken upon by anyone that sees it. And we all know how that can and will be used against hunting.

I 100% agree with the archery example. That was the first thing that came to my mind. There is a reason that archery hunters, including myself, usually give 30-60 minutes after a shot to come down from the stand. The ugly truth is that's just how long it can take.