ND Game & Fish

[shorthairsrus]

I am not going to bitch at all about the GF lowering tags - i have 4 preference points for next year and probably will end up waiting again. I bitched enough when Randy Kreil sold out every possible tag he could. Pheasant roosters are crowing around devils lake. I never believed the "blame it on weather scheme that Kreil put his hat on" and every time i am back in a bay and here a crow I think of Kreil and his weather farce. Tags given killed the majority of the deer. Reduce the tags and let them come back.

 

[Retired Educator]

I don't believe it was totally weather, but combined with loss of habitat that accounted for a huge loss of deer for a couple of years. In my opinion far more than the 140K licenses sold by G&F. I happen to know several landowners in a pretty big block of land that were very fussy about who was allowed to hunt on their land and what kind of deer was allowed to be shot. Deer were plentiful on these farms, habitat was good, (lots of CRP) and harvest limited by landowners, not G&F. The kind of hunting that pissed the average hunter who wasn't allowed on the property off. How's the population today? Down like much of the rest of the state.

What caused the loss of deer on this property, CRP coming out, a few extremely cold winter with lots of snow and a very late spring. I think I'm pretty safe in saying that no more than 10-15% of the deer were harvested on this property each year and now there's not 1/3 of the deer there used to be.

You can blame farmers for taking land out of CRP but farmers are businessmen(women). Their goal is to operate at a profit. When CRP was originally put into the program the payment/acre varied around the state but I'm pretty sure it wasn't uncommon for payments in the $35-$40/acre area. 10-15 years later when the land was eligible to come out wheat was worth $10+/bushel, corn $8+/bushel, canola $10+/bushel. In many areas it was possible to have a profit well above the price received per acre for CRP. Even cash rent for those who no longer farmed the land was much higher than the CRP payment. So what would you have done? Farm at a loss so everyone else can have great deer-hunting?

In my opinion the loss of CRP is the single biggest reason for the state's loss of deer and other game animals. And that was entirely a federal program, not a state program. The purpose of the CRP program was to take land out of production to increase the price of commodities, therefore reducing the cost of subsidies to producers. Subsidies can be viewed as good or bad dependent on your viewpoint but without a doubt the subsidies to pay for CRP were the single biggest reason for out great hunting during those years. And know, the loss of CRP is the single biggest reason we may never see the "good old days" again.

 

[Flatrock]

G&F is as corrupt as the Clintons

What's your firsthand experience that the G&F is corrupt?

 

[Fracman]

I think the G&F is doing fine job I had a buck tag 3 years ago none last year and now I have one this year. Hunting units are getting to be like fishing spot. Have to keep them secret.

 

[cpete00]

Make gratis 640 acres

 

[gst]

http://blog.trcp.org/2016/07/20/who-is-checking-up-on-farmers-paid-to-do-conservation-taxpayers-wont-like-the-answer/

From the article. Right out of the box they make an inaccurate statement.

"Farmers who use government programs to help manage risk and grow their operations must also affirm that they have not planted crops in wetlands or on highly erodible land."

HEL lands can be farmed and many are. Some wetlands can be farmed but not drained. You need to have a conservation plan in place which you need to certify at the FSA office. I believe if I remember right it is an ad 1026. You need to have this signed prior to purchasing crop insurance or RMA. When you sign up there is a record of what farming practices have been engaged in on these lands as to what will qualify under your conservation plan.

file:///C:/Users/Tracie/Downloads/Change$%20to%20Good%20Faith%20Provi$ion%20for%20HEL%20violation$.pdf

There can also be significant penalties for noncompliance and in a day an age where satalite imagery and asshole neighbors wanting to rent your lands, most people I know don;t push the limits too much. I do know some folks that are talking about dropping out of the program altogether.

"Strategy:The TRCP hosts the Agriculture and Wildlife Working Group (AWWG), a coalition of representatives from the TRCP and the nation’s leading conservation and sportsmen organizations. The AWWG successfully advocated for priority programs in the 2014 Farm Bill; policymakers and journalists have recognized that hunting and fishing groups did more to pass the 2014 Farm Bill than many traditional farm groups"

Perhaps orgs like TRCP and their "working groups" that fail to include agriculture producers at the table are part of pushing that pendelum.

Just trying to provide a few facts so hopefully the typical responses do not side track a thread about the NDGF.

 

[Sluggin_Guts]

I believe that it would be more constructive to have a discussion on how to properly manage the deer population, grow the numbers of deer in the state, speak with farmers, state agencies and such and come up with solutions to provide better habitat. We may never see the years of 140k tags being given away, but if we got the deer population back to a point where 80k tags are given away every year, I think most people would be happy. In short, the system isn't broken, its the numbers of deer in the state.

I don't want to pick on H82Bogey, but I've read a lot of comments like his several times over the last couple years. Alot of people are of the opinion that we need larger deer populations, but I'd like to see some real data that suggests we are under populated. As far as I can tell the coyotes are still eating well. I like deer hunting as much as the next guy, but I really think we have been spoiled by the peak populations we saw 5 years ago and too many people feel like they should be entitled to a buck tag every year or two.

Hell, I think we are way under populated on mountain lions and I wish the G&F would do something to help improve populations. It's always been a dream of mine to harvest a nice cat out on my hunting grounds.

 

[Enslow]

The NDGF failed there last audit... That agency has lots of issues.

 

[8andcounting]

I am not going to bitch at all about the GF lowering tags - i have 4 preference points for next year and probably will end up waiting again. I bitched enough when Randy Kreil sold out every possible tag he could. Pheasant roosters are crowing around devils lake. I never believed the "blame it on weather scheme that Kreil put his hat on" and every time i am back in a bay and here a crow I think of Kreil and his weather farce. Tags given killed the majority of the deer. Reduce the tags and let them come back.

This ...... Is ..... 100% correct . The hunters ( cuz g and f sold them a million doe tags) did the damage . Blah blah all u want about habitat and weather . 145k tags for a decade is what did it . There's a crew I know that had 8-10 guys in it and each had minimum of 4-5 extra tags a year for many years , now 1 guy other day was wining cuz his kids haven't had tags in 4 years and blah blah blah . I looked at him and said well what goes around comes around . Hunters killed the deer . 1996-1997 were huge winters and they did no where near the damage that we the hunters did

 

[Kurtr]

Tbreads like this make me happy I moved back to SD.

 

[BBQBluesMan]

Let's not forget why the NDGF issued so many tags for so many years. Landowners had too many deer which caused multiple issues + homeowners living out of town getting their prized trees chewed on + the public hitting deer with vehicles + insurance companies complaining about all the vehicle collisions = the legislature and governor "forcing" the NDGF to issue a copious amount of tags. Couple that with a couple bad winters and a big loss of CRP here we are. To those that think the huge amount of CRP during those years had no effect on the number of deer, not sure what to say.

 

[Flatrock]

Tbreads like this make me happy I moved back to SD.

Man I'll bet. Can't you theoretically get 6 or 8 buck tags? West river, east river, refuge, Custer, muzzy, black hills, special, and archery? Or maybe a guy can't apply for them all, I'm not sure.

 

[shorthairsrus]

CRP decline was taking place starting in 2007 --- what did NDGF do -- issued record tag numbers for several years beyond 2007 -- you guys can talk weather and crp all you want -- the numbers were already in decline based on the tags. Tags tags tags -- you can hop on the Kreil wagon - but lets face it - the G and F wins when tag numbers increase. Money money money money.

 

[Flatrock]

This ...... Is ..... 100% correct . The hunters ( cuz g and f sold them a million doe tags) did the damage . Blah blah all u want about habitat and weather . 145k tags for a decade is what did it . There's a crew I know that had 8-10 guys in it and each had minimum of 4-5 extra tags a year for many years , now 1 guy other day was wining cuz his kids haven't had tags in 4 years and blah blah blah . I looked at him and said well what goes around comes around . Hunters killed the deer . 1996-1997 were huge winters and they did no where near the damage that we the hunters did

No doubt all the doe tags had an effect. There's no denying that. If you deny that the winters had very little role in it though, that is just wrong. I grew up in the northwest part of the state and there were some landowners who had 30+ dead deer in their farmyards come springtime.

 

[shorthairsrus]

If you hunted in the 70s like I did -- you scratched your head when Kreil ramped up the tags like he did after the population started dropping. Weather has always been around - yes some deer die --- they do every year. But you cannot continue to ramp up the tags the way they did and the ratio they did it at and not expect the population to immediately drop which it did. Why not after the first bad winter didn't they reduce the tags --- why because they were greedy.

THe GF went to some national meeting somewhere (flew first class and hit some stpr bars) and some speaker stood up and told them what the percentage of deer harvest were taken in each state - like MN and WI and the g&f said well hell lets see if our residents will put up with that they are dumb they probably will. Hell they don't mind all the sconys and sotas taking all the fish out of our state so lets bring down the harvest numbers and we can continue to bleed em like the DNR does.

 

[Flatrock]

Everybody is an expert when it comes to looking in the past and what should have been done with tag numbers. How about now, what should the G&F be doing with tag numbers? More, less, the same? I think they're striking a good balance of opportunity and also letting the numbers come back. Glad that they shut down the mulie doe season for a few years.

 

[shorthairsrus]

Everybody is an expert when it comes to looking in the past and what should have been done with tag numbers. How about now, what should the G&F be doing with tag numbers? More, less, the same? I think they're striking a good balance of opportunity and also letting the numbers come back. Glad that they shut down the mulie doe season for a few years.

I agree -- however I have been vocal since 2007 and before -- you can review all my past threads -- I am sure the majority are out for one to see. Remember -- when Kreil told Timmers that his "drinking buddies on FBO" that was a classic thread. I cant find that one - but it was like salt being rubbed in a wound when it was brought up later. All Kreil wanted was a "buck". I did the same bitching about the big lake when they weren't stocking when they should -- guess what they ramped it to 4million. The knee jerks - it just takes years for it to do so. I think from an overall fishery and deer they are doing all the right things now. I have commended them for it at the time and not later and that is in the archives too.



- - - Updated - - -

ps I have always been an expert --- #1 now retired armchair biologist.

 

[NDSportsman]

I'm losing more confidence in the GNF "lottery system" every year. It's mind boggling to me how so many people with few PP's can draw while others with twice as many are SOL. They really need to adjust their "system"! I realize it's a lottery but it's supposed to be a weighted lottery and it doesn't appear to be weighted enough!

 

[Flatrock]

I'm losing more confidence in the GNF "lottery system" every year. It's mind boggling to me how so many people with few PP's can draw while others with twice as many are SOL. They really need to adjust their "system"! I realize it's a lottery but it's supposed to be a weighted lottery and it doesn't appear to be weighted enough!

I totally disagree. More points=better draw odds. Just because somebody with 2 points draws and somebody with 6 points doesn't draw, that does NOT make it a broken system. Luck is part of it and we can't throw a tantrum when somebody with more points than us draws.

Would you rather have a straight preference point system where the people with the most points draw? Sure, that type of system is nice when you get to have lots of points because you know you'll draw for sure but then once you draw, you have 0% chance of drawing until you build up a lot of points again. I think the current system is really good and I like that they cube your bonus points once you get to 4 points. Gives everyone a small chance with 0-3 points and once you get to 4, your odds go way, way up.

 

[Nanky]

Do you know do they continue to cube your points or is there a max number of times an application can be put in? Just curious especially for muzzleloader.