SB2137

[NDSportsman]

How many deer in ND have died from CWD?

Stop wasting time and money on something that to date has had 0 impact on our deer herd!

 

[bravo]

Counterpoint - the lack of CWD impact on the herd shows the methods are working.

I know, tough to compare against a “control” group. I don’t care much about CWD either way, but some out there do and the deer are just as much theirs as they are mine. Just sayin’.

 

[Trip McNeely]

Counterpoint - the lack of CWD impact on the herd shows the methods are working.

I know, tough to compare against a “control” group. I don’t care much about CWD either way, but some out there do and the deer are just as much theirs as they are mine. Just sayin’.

No….. good try though. You think anyone would believe that counterpoint?

 

[bravo]

The closest we have to a control would be Saskatchewan. Similar landscape and they did nothing. It spread and did a lot of damage to their trophy destination status.

So a rational, objective person would at least consider it.

 

[wct12]

Counterpoint - the lack of CWD impact on the herd shows the methods are working.

I know, tough to compare against a “control” group. I don’t care much about CWD either way, but some out there do and the deer are just as much theirs as they are mine. Just sayin’.

The closest example we have of the departments practices was 3f2.. 10 years of culling and baiting restrictions and between 2009 and 2019 and then between 19 and 22 I believe 76 or 77% from 3f2 (I would have to double check my testimony, I did the math there) have occurred. After 10 years of their stuff being in place a 4 year spike occurred. Then the department “shifted areas of focus”

 

[KDM]

Ok BrockW, just for fun I chose Kansas to do some research on. First off Kansas itself claims their deer herd is growing and has been for the last 22 years. It's the first statement I saw when I googled Kansas deer herd growing by the way. Kansas has had cwd since 2001. That means the deer herd in Kansas has been growing the whole time cwd has been there. Also, an interesting point is that you CAN BAIT in Kansas on private land. So how do you justify wanting to implement bait bans again? See also the effectiveness of bait bans in Wyoming, Colorado, Minnesota, and others.

I then looked into new york where you stated culling worked. According to the cwd alliance website map, the only place cwd was found was in captive herds in central New York. I found conflicting reports from "Official" sites that state no wild deer were found with cwd and then there are those that state there were. Regardless, NY used culling to eliminate those captive herds and then does it for simple population control in urban settings. NY just identified another deer from a captive herd last year, so I guess culling captive deer works, but I haven't seen where culling operations worked for ANY wild deer herds.

On to Colorado. ONE....yes ONE herd in Co reported a reduction in cwd prevalence. However, they themselves, the state, report that this was due to sustained hunting and culling campaigns. Well no shit. Kill 80% of the deer and I'll bet you will get an 80% reduction in cwd prevalence when compared to the begining. Kill them with a bullet so they don't die from cwd. That's as rediculous as Pelosi's "Pass it so we know what's in it" lunacy.

I could go on, but this is making my head hurt. CWD is a non-issue and nobody anywhere has been able to show me evidence to the contrary. Nothing but a political cash and power grab through fear mongering and public scare tactics.

Carry On!

 

[Trip McNeely]

3f2 is exactly why this is a giant waste of time and money grab. It’s living proof of a few things. 1) baiting restrictions dont do shit. 2) even with higher incidence rates the deer are not dying from CWD. 3) EHD and winter severely wiped out the deer populations in that area long before any scary disease could do any damage.

 

[wct12]

The closest we have to a control would be Saskatchewan. Similar landscape and they did nothing. It spread and did a lot of damage to their trophy destination status.

So a rational, objective person would at least consider it.

Sask is still number 11 I believe in top destinations for B&C whitetails (has dropped from 9 on entries) in 5 years. Wisconsin is number 1 and is always used as a “what if” on CWD examples also. Texas and Michigan are also climbing in the B&C enteries list.

Saskatchewan also increased tag numbers to use sportsmen to cull. Looking at trophy quality is tough because if I remove way more deer than a herd can have removed to keep quality sustainable (more 130-150” 3-4 year old deer killed every year, there will be less 4-6 160+” deer being killed because tag allotments removed them before they made it as much or probably way more so than CWD)

 

[duckman1302]

We know for a fact, that for the overwhelming majority of deer, that once infected the clock starts ticking and they have a 16-24 months to live. Sometimes a bit less, sometimes a bit more.

How do we know this? We have no way of knowing this. The only way a deer can be tested is after it is dead. There is literally NO way of knowing how long a deer has been infected If it does die. In all actuality we have no way of knowing if CWD is even lethal.

 

[8andcounting]

Look , I think we should be spending $ on far more important things than cwd . But I will commend Brock , it’s obvious he cares about what he’s fighting for and even tho I don’t agree with him at all I respect his efforts . Hopefully those who disagree with him will do the same . We are all hunters after all

 

[Fritz the Cat]

If Brock got stuck in this dumpster looking for a prion, Ya OK, I'd reluctantly help him out.

 

[PrairieGhost]

I don't think any of us here know what we by now should know about CWD. We do know a large amount of money is being wasted. When the feds hand out grants to multiple states they waste money. Spend 1/10 as much by picking the state with the largest infection rate and fund the one state with much more money. I am amazed that with all our technology we know so little. It does give the impression that all states are milking the system. Pick a state and put more effort into that state. Better science with less money. We don't always like the truth, but we do need to know it.

 

[BrockW]

Ok BrockW, just for fun I chose Kansas to do some research on. First off Kansas itself claims their deer herd is growing and has been for the last 22 years. It's the first statement I saw when I googled Kansas deer herd growing by the way. Kansas has had cwd since 2001. That means the deer herd in Kansas has been growing the whole time cwd has been there. Also, an interesting point is that you CAN BAIT in Kansas on private land. So how do you justify wanting to implement bait bans again? See also the effectiveness of bait bans in Wyoming, Colorado, Minnesota, and others.

I then looked into new york where you stated culling worked. According to the cwd alliance website map, the only place cwd was found was in captive herds in central New York. I found conflicting reports from "Official" sites that state no wild deer were found with cwd and then there are those that state there were. Regardless, NY used culling to eliminate those captive herds and then does it for simple population control in urban settings. NY just identified another deer from a captive herd last year, so I guess culling captive deer works, but I haven't seen where culling operations worked for ANY wild deer herds.

On to Colorado. ONE....yes ONE herd in Co reported a reduction in cwd prevalence. However, they themselves, the state, report that this was due to sustained hunting and culling campaigns. Well no shit. Kill 80% of the deer and I'll bet you will get an 80% reduction in cwd prevalence when compared to the begining. Kill them with a bullet so they don't die from cwd. That's as rediculous as Pelosi's "Pass it so we know what's in it" lunacy.

I could go on, but this is making my head hurt. CWD is a non-issue and nobody anywhere has been able to show me evidence to the contrary. Nothing but a political cash and power grab through fear mongering and public scare tactics.

Carry On!

I’m not sure where you’re getting your numbers at. Kansas first had it in the wild in 2005, only 4 years longer than us. They have never regulated baiting and already have 40% + prevalence in NW Kansas. Additionally, Kansas recent surveys reported less deer (both sexes) and declining deer numbers in NW Kansas where their CWD hot spots are. Kansas Game and fish staff can confirm they get reports of sick CWD deer in that area and have been for the last couple years.

Deer pops are doing well in eastern Kansas where prevalence is low. But if prevalence gets high there, they will likely see population impacts as well….just like every place with high prevalence. No exceptions to this. Some just more severe than others.

Wyoming and Co have had the disease for 40 years in the wild, they are still significantly better off in most areas of the state compared to places like Sask where baiting is widely popular. Both in prevalence and geographic spread.

Again, not sure where you get your numbers. Colorados deer herd has been almost cut in half since the early 2000s. Sure that’s not all due to CWD, but it ain’t EHD. And only so much of it can be attributed to increased harvest. Some is due to winter, sure. But we also know winter is harder on CWD+ positive animals. If you talk to the folks who live and work in the hotspots, all the ones I’ve talked to confirm CWD is an issue and has caused noticeable impacts to deer populations and age structures. Some areas worse than others. 40 years with the disease and they’re still doing better than Saskatchewan and in some measure better than Kansas right next door.

Why is that? I subscribe to occams razor…encouraging baiting and incentivizing feeding by allowing hunting over bait creates the perfect environment to spread a contagious disease. That is just common sense. Someone denying that is not living in reality. Especially with a disease that is not easily transmitted like the cold or flu. It takes large doses or repeated exposure. The states that have banned baiting fair better with the disease, almost overwhelmingly.

Also, not correct about New York. New York’s first case in the wild was in the early 2000s. They went in and culled a bunch of deer immediately in that area and have been CWD free in the wild ever since. There was recently a positive in a deer farm facility….iirc it was a deer that was shipped in from somewhere. Maybe someone can correct me on that.

 

[Kurtr]

Colorado is easy. It’s winters and development of wintering grounds

 

[guywhofishes]

 

[Kurtr]

I have been to damn near every one of those operations but didn’t see any cwd what’s the correlation?

 

[guywhofishes]

I have been to damn near every one of those operations but didn’t see any cwd what’s the correlation?

No idea - I’ve always thought there’s got to be an environmental component to CWD - something that causes the animals to be susceptible, something that creates prions outside the animals themselves, causes freakishly high intake, etc.

If NW KS is a hotspot, maybe it’s due to what ag or other human activity is happening. Much of human activity is related to the land/geology/climate.

I think AI and big data will eventually get the CWD mystery solved.

I don’t believe it’s due to baiting practices as Brock strongly suggested above. Somewhat of a desperate reach in my opinion. Do hunters in the NW bait far more than anywhere else - so much so that they're to blame???

 

[BrockW]

I’ve had a lot of discussions around the topic of soils as it relates to CWD. We know for a fact that certain clay soil particles can substantially increase infectivity of prions. They have demonstrated that they can take dose sizes too small to infect deer, bind them with clay, and then successfully infect deer.

I would agree that it probably contributes in some fashion, and those discussions tend to gravitate towards mule deer, simply because they tend to live more in clay soil environments. It might(emphasis) be why mule deer seem to be impacted a little more. The problem is that doesn’t explain some of the high prevalences in areas without high levels of clay in soils.

 

[guywhofishes]

CWD Detection and land class maps overlapped

 

[guywhofishes]

It isn't necessarily related to the prion/soil interaction specifically. It could be related to ag chemicals (which are highly dependent on crops which vary with soil types - chemical burndown of wheat for instance), browse preference, any host of deer behavior and intake due to their environment.

Or are CWD deer simply more readily located/identified in the high plains of KS for some reason? (you can watch your dog run away for days type of landscape - so wasting deer are easily spotted)

Like I said - big data would probably get to the bottom of it.