Selling of your public lands.



ItemB

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Any specific names or people to call/email in ND congress?
 

Kurtr

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It has been out for little over a week. The same guy from Utah every year. It is in the house so I would call you representative. I did. I am not convinced the states can manage the land...Even though the feds have done a poor job. I am willing to give the new sec of interriror a chance to do it right.
 

gst

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I do agree with you kurt that the Feds have done a poor job and am willing to give this administration and Zinke a chance. But just how bad does things have to get under these Federal agencies before one would give the states a chance if there was a guarantee of public access and ownership?

We know the Feds lose tax payer monies managing their lands while the states typically show a positive return on the publicly owned state lands.

I am just curious what others think, void of the usual rhetoric please, what would it take to support transfer of these lands to the states or do people only care about their hunting opportunity and nothing else? Not that that would change under state control of public land.
 


Marbleyes

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I do agree with you kurt that the Feds have done a poor job and am willing to give this administration and Zinke a chance. But just how bad does things have to get under these Federal agencies before one would give the states a chance if there was a guarantee of public access and ownership?

We know the Feds lose tax payer monies managing their lands while the states typically show a positive return on the publicly owned state lands.

I am just curious what others think, void of the usual rhetoric please, what would it take to support transfer of these lands to the states or do people only care about their hunting opportunity and nothing else? Not that that would change under state control of public land.

I agree with you and Kurt about this but the "guarantee of public access and ownership" would have to be absolutey key and in no way could be changed by politicians, maybe a state wide vote for changes of ownership but even there I would like to see no "out of state" interests fund campaigns trying to convince people why it's good for the public to lose public land.
I just worry that if/when the states have financial trouble like most do from time to time (like the recession that just happened) that they may just sell the land to buy time. Can't prove that but it's a legit worry I would have. To be honest, it's hard for me not to care about my hunting and fishing opportunities so that's a lot of where my worry comes from. Just my opinion.
 
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labhunter66

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If there was a guarantee of public access and ownership than I would have no problem with turning the land over to the states but why would they want it then? That land would have to come to the state in fee title to make it worthwhile. I doubt the feds would want to give up such assets as mineral rights but without it how could they not be money losers for the states?
 

BBQBluesMan

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States cannot afford to manage public lands, it will be sold to the highest bidder. Do not support this, make your voice heard!
 

Uncle Jimbo

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States cannot afford to manage public lands, it will be sold to the highest bidder. Do not support this, make your voice heard!

BBQ is correct! One bad wildfire season like what Montana endured a couple years ago will drain all state funds and leave them in a deficit. How do you think the deficits will be paid? All one needs to do is look at states east of ND to see the lack of state lands where they once existed...hell, look at eastern ND and tell me how much public land still exists. The sale of state lands to private parties will line the pockets of the wealthy and fill campaign coffers for politicians.

Management of federal lands has been poor, we can all agree, but let's fix what's broken in the system instead of throwing the system out the window.
 


Kurtr

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I do agree with you kurt that the Feds have done a poor job and am willing to give this administration and Zinke a chance. But just how bad does things have to get under these Federal agencies before one would give the states a chance if there was a guarantee of public access and ownership?

We know the Feds lose tax payer monies managing their lands while the states typically show a positive return on the publicly owned state lands.

I am just curious what others think, void of the usual rhetoric please, what would it take to support transfer of these lands to the states or do people only care about their hunting opportunity and nothing else? Not that that would change under state control of public land.

If there was a guarantee and land sales could only be approved by a 75% of the voters would be a start. This is such a multiple layered subject it is really hard to find the right thing.

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The politicians are what makes this a really hard deal as you have to put a lot of trust in them
 

gst

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States cannot afford to manage public lands, it will be sold to the highest bidder. Do not support this, make your voice heard!

I have shared before links to studies that show states have and can manage public lands far more fiscally responsibly than the Feds. so this is not necessarily the case. In those studies the states show a return per acre MANY times over what the fed does. As to the wild fire issue, the agreement should carry a liability clause stating that until proper management reduces the risk of catastrophic fires the Federal govt is responsible for fire fighting costs related to their mismanagement.

timber sales from properly managed state lands have shown that not only are catastrophic fire risls lowered substantially but the income generated returns a profit to the state.

And any agreement transfering lands to the states can and most likely would contain language to require them to be kept public to be successful. That transfer agreement would be voted on at the Federal level, not the state level. (the state would likely have to vote on whether to accept the terms of the transfer) Remember the representatives in the states with the fewest acres of public land far out number the representatives from the states with the greatest acres of public lands so who do you think would win a vote on a plan to allow the state these lands are in to sell them off and take them away from those residents of the other states ?

http://growinggeorgia.com/features/2016/06/states-better-feds-managing-land/

[FONT=&quot]A 2015 PERC report concluded that, “Federal land agencies lose billions of dollars each year managing valuable resources on federal lands.” The statistics were supported by a comparison of how Arizona, Idaho, Montana and New Mexico manage trust land vs. the federal government’s management of federal lands, and claimed that, “every dollar spent on state trust land management generates an average $14.51 for each $1 spent, (while) The [/FONT]U.S. Forest Service (USFS)[FONT=&quot] and the [/FONT]Bureau of Land Management (BLM),[FONT=&quot] Interior, generates only $.73 for every dollar spent on federal land.”[/FONT]

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BBQ is correct! One bad wildfire season like what Montana endured a couple years ago will drain all state funds and leave them in a deficit. How do you think the deficits will be paid? All one needs to do is look at states east of ND to see the lack of state lands where they once existed...hell, look at eastern ND and tell me how much public land still exists. The sale of state lands to private parties will line the pockets of the wealthy and fill campaign coffers for politicians.

Management of federal lands has been poor, we can all agree, but let's fix what's broken in the system instead of throwing the system out the window.

You mean like Harry Reid and his minion in the BLM selling off federal public lands to line their pockets? It is already happening.

Actually the emboldened print is not an accurate statement as those federal lands were INTENDED to be sold off to fund the development of schools and colleges and other things needed to settle these lands. It was part of the agreement the Federal govt entered into with the states. On another site I shared an extensive amount of information and links to provide the facts behind the sale of those public lands.

I was hoping this discussion could be a positive one without the usual rhetoric of lining pockets ect. I agree lets try to fix the system under this administration, but if the reality of "fixing" federal systems does not change, the question is at what point does one support something different?

How does one "fix" the broken system? the links below shows how broken it actually is. Had the state assets been allowed to fly perhaps those fires would not have cost so much to put out.


http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_cdd084ed-dfdd-598b-9a42-ee822849595a.html


http://watchdog.org/235250/montana-wildfires/

And yet another example of how broken the system is.

http://www.denverpost.com/2014/10/1...lands-better-than-the-federal-government-yes/
 
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PrairieGhost

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When they guarantee access make sure it doesn't mean at $200 per day. Guaranteed access is very nebulous. It's our lands so demand free access as we have it now. Otherwise there is no guarantee that the state would not give all rights to whoever leases the land.
 

gst

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Virtually all western states have been hit with wildfires this summer but the damage from fires in Montana appears to have been aggravated by Federal Government rules and policies governing vast tracts of federally-owned land in the state.
According to a report by Montana Public Radio, the U.S Forest Service, under the direction of Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack, restricted Montana fire teams from using the helicopters in fire suppression efforts. The report cites Montana’s Department of Natural Resources and Conservation director, John Tubbs:
The issue, according to the state of Montana’s John Tubbs, stems from the 2009 crash of a private helicopter the U.S. Forest Service contracted to fight fires. After that, the Forest Service put restrictions on what kinds of helicopters can be used to fight fire on national forests.
Tubbs, the director of Montana’s Department of Natural Resources and Conservation, says the restrictions are now applied on his department’s helicopters, and cost valuable time.
“Earlier in the summer, we were in Kalispell with our aircraft, and watched the smoke column on the North Fork fire build for 4 hours before they were able to get a U.S.F.S. contracted helicopter on that. And we would have been up and over to the fire in 30 minutes, so that’s three-and-a-half hours of fire,” Tubbs says.

Fire suppression exercises are ordinarily an interagency effort, with state and local agencies coordinating with the federal government. But the vast majority of public lands west of the Continental Divide, including those in Montana, are owned and managed by federal agencies including the Department of the Interior, the Environmental Protection Agency, and the U.S. Forest Service

On August 21, 2015, Montana Governor, Steve Bullock fired off a grievance letter to Secretary Vilsack regarding the helicopter ban. In a letter to the USDA, Governor Bullock declared:
I have previously stated to you my concerns related to restrictions placed by the USDA Forest Service on the use of Montana UH-1H helicopters. Our pilots have flown these helicopters on hundreds of missions on wildland fires around the state this summer. The primary goal for [Montana’s] DNRC’s UH-1H aircraft is initial attack and they are again demonstrating their effectiveness this fire season.
However, wildland fires emerged on federal fire protection in full view of our aviation staff, who watched them grow as federal firefighters waited for other “approved” aircraft to be dispatched from distant locations. I am also aware of fires where state aircraft were above wildfires and instructed not to take suppression actions, due to the fact that the fires were on federal fire protection. This makes no sense, and puts the safety and property of Montanans at risk.
As of August 24, 2015, over 7 million acres have been burned in western wildland fires, with 13 large and 26 smaller fires still ablaze in Montana. A conservative estimate for damages in Montana alone is currently $36 million.
Last week Governor Bullock declared a state of emergency in Montana’s fire-ravaged regions, authorizing the National Guard to use its resources to aid fire-fighting efforts. But in spite of cries to reverse what Governor Bullock refers to as “nonsensical restrictions,” to date there is no indication that the federal government intends to lift the ban on Montana’s helicopter fire-suppression fleet.
Montana and several other states maintain aerial firefighting fleets to be deployed in wildland fire emergencies. Montana’s fleet includes Blackhawk and Chinook helicopters used for quick and effective fire suppression within the state.



"I'm from the Federal govt and I'm here to help"................


When they guarantee access make sure it doesn't mean at $200 per day. Guaranteed access is very nebulous. It's our lands so demand free access as we have it now. Otherwise there is no guarantee that the state would not give all rights to whoever leases the land.

Plains please don;t bring that tired crap into a discussion aimed at learning how the system is broken and speaking to how to try and fix it.

Any agreement passed by Congress to transfer these lands would have language to keep these lands public as they are now or the likelihood of passing would be slim to none. All those states out east that do not have those vast tracts of land to sell off would assure that. The only way those eastern states would agree to sell western lands is if the monies went into the coffers they could access and then what state would agree to sell those lands off under those terms?

Lets try to keep this thread from turning into what every other one has and maybe find a solution or two instead of dividing and distracting.

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A pretty good read if one wishes to take the time. An odd discrepancy but for the most part pretty accurate.

https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/interior/reforming-federal-land-management
 
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Uncle Jimbo

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GST I would love to see your sources. I was under the impression that state land was to be owned by the state to generate perpetual income to help reduce taxes and fund the school system in that district. Look at the map in the link, https://gf.nd.gov/plots/guide/maps and tell me why there few/no state sections east of the missouri, and the ones that do exist are sloughs. Why only sloughs remain public and all good farm ground is private?
 


gst

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GST I would love to see your sources. I was under the impression that state land was to be owned by the state to generate perpetual income to help reduce taxes and fund the school system in that district. Look at the map in the link, https://gf.nd.gov/plots/guide/maps and tell me why there few/no state sections east of the missouri, and the ones that do exist are sloughs. Why only sloughs remain public and all good farm ground is private?

There is a thread over on FBO when the Randy Newburg thread was going on where I shared extensive information and the links to it explaining the history of Federal lands in the US. plainsman could weigh in if he remembers the thread name. It was pretty though and complete spelling out the intent of these lands from the start were for the state to sell or manage them to fund various . I believe the word in the document was "dispose of" .

As to your question about lands east of the miz. NDSU is a land grant college.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrill_Land-Grant_Acts

https://www.nap.edu/read/4980/chapter/2

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http://trib.com/news/state-and-regi...cle_88bfb04b-6449-539d-8e70-081d781da35d.html

I am a technological idiot. Don't know how to cut/paste etc. Recent article out of Casper Star in Wyoming. Governor has also rejected the idea due to state inability to absorb costs of managing that much land.


Then the states should be able to refuse the transfer.

It seems from your article that there exists an existing budget shortfall which is caused by the Feds mismanagemntof these federal lads. For some reason Wyonming gets a bigger cut than other states so if the Feds mismangage the leasing there is a bigger shortfall.

"On the other side are critics of the federal government’s bureaucracy. They note that it can take over a decade to permit grazing, mining, drilling and wind projects. Wyoming’s cut of that development is about $1 billion a year, money that funds schools and state agencies.This session, lawmakers must figure out how to close a $400 million shortfall in the state’s two-year budget. Lawmakers are also facing a deficit of over $1 billion in school funding in coming years that they will also attempt to tackle during the 2017 session, which continues through early March.

Wyoming relies heavily on coal revenues.....the last years years there has been a war on coal ,,,,,,they can not afford much of anything.

http://bollier.org/interior-departments-oil-lease-scandal-and-its-lessons-commons

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/joe-setyon/leases-oil-gas-federal-lands-down-17-under-obama

The system is broken.

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Uncle Jimbo............


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Historical Context

Congress granted state trust lands to newly organized states entering the Union. These lands were meant to be managed to support essential public institutions. While many state trust lands have passed into private ownership, the remaining 46 million acres, concentrated in the western U.S., represent a significant part of the landscape. Unlike other public lands, most state trust lands are held in trust for designated beneficiaries, principally public schools. State trust managers lease and sell these lands for a diverse range of uses to meet their fiduciary responsibility – generating revenue for the designated beneficiaries, today and for future generations. Proceeds are distributed into a state’s permanent fund and used for many purposes, from guaranteeing school loans to paying teachers’ salaries.
The Origins of State Trust Lands

The practice of granting land to support public education was inherited from Europe, traceable as far back as the Roman Empire, ancient Greece, and even the kingdoms of Egypt. During the 1600s and 1700s, the American colonies established land endowments for a variety of institutions, ranging from colleges to public elementary schools. Many of these states also used the sale or lease of public lands as a funding source for public education. Although there were no federal land grants for public education in the original thirteen colonies, the colonial governments, and later the early state governments of Connecticut, Massachusetts, New York, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and Georgia all made substantial land grants in support of public education. These early land grants established a variety of school funds that were financed from the sale or lease of public lands, reserved state lands in each township to support schools, or granted land to support specific educational institutions.
State trust lands date back to the first decades after the American Revolutionary War. The General Land Ordinance of 1785 and the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 established and systematized the policies that governed the disposal of the public domain to settlers and the creation of new states. Under the framework of these ordinances, a centrally located parcel in each surveyed township – section sixteen – would be reserved for the support of schools, and once the territory became a state, the state would receive title to these reserved parcels (as well as land grants to support other public institutions). This policy was later expanded to include additional reserved sections to support schools, as well as land grants to support other public institutions, such as universities, hospitals, schools for the deaf and blind, and correctional facilities, among others; however, K-12 public schools were by far the largest beneficiaries of the land grant programs.
The rectangular survey system established by the General Land Ordinance and the Northwest Ordinance divided the public domain into 36-square mile areas of land, called “townships.” Each township was further divided into 36 “sections” of one-square mile each.
STL-Section-Map.jpg

This system, strongly informed by the governance of the original colonies and the revolutionary sentiments related to public education, enlightenment-era rationalism, and the concept of an agrarian democracy, envisioned the township as the most basic unit of government. With populations oriented around small, agrarian communities, these townships would provide for the democratic education of their citizens. Section 16 occurs in the center of each township. In the words of the U.S. Supreme Court, by reserving a centrally located section within each township, Congress could consecrate the same central section of every township of every State which might be added to the federal system, to the promotion 'of good government and the happiness of mankind,' by the spread of 'religion, morality, and knowledge,' and thus, by a uniformity of local association, to plant in the heart of every community the same sentiments of grateful reverence for the wisdom, forecast, and magnanimous statesmanship of those who framed the institutions for these new States, before the constitution for the old had yet been modeled.1
The state land grant program established in the General Land Ordinance and Northwest Ordinance descended from a common belief held by many of the country’s early leaders: that liberty was founded on education, and as a result, the provision of universal public education was an essential requirement to ensure a democratic future for the expanding nation. Although the early federal government had little money available to support the public needs of the newly organizing states, the federal government had one resource in abundance – land. By granting some of these lands to newly organized states, the federal government could provide new state governments (who lacked any substantial tax base) with a source of revenue that could be used to fund public education and other important public institutions.




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it is all here along with the bullshit. http://www.fishingbuddy.com/stealing-your-public-land-randy-newberg

This is kinda what it would be nice to avoid this time.
 

Kurtr

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The state school lands were supposed to be used to find schools either through the taxes or selling it. That is why almost all has been sold east of the Mississippi. There are a lot of caveat's to this whole system. There is no blanket answer . There would have to be it is transferred back to the feds with no possibility of selling it as I do believe some states would sell it off in short order and others would be good. Utah is one I would not trust. Just look at their hunting tag system
 

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For those of you who wants to contact your representatives and congressmen, there is an app in which to do this. Just heard it on the news this morning. Its called COUNTABLE-CONTACT, this app allows you to get in touch with your congressmen via smartphones and let them know how you feel about a particular law that they are working on. This would be an excellent response to public lands issues you are debating here today. thanks

 

Fly Carpin

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That seems like a handy app Skibbys. From the conversations I've had with gov't representatives and their aides, the best thing you can do is call. Email is ok, FBook and Twitter are completely useless (no one that counts reads the comments). If you're trying to get your word to a member of Congress or a Senator, call their local office. If you're trying to get in touch with a legislator, it couldn't be easier. Most have their office, home, and cell numbers listed
 


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