Technology in the outdoors- where is the line?

[Traxion]

https://www.gohunt.com/read/news/update-on-potential-arizona-trail-camera-ban#gs.oostkr

I recently read this article about AZ possibly banning trail cameras. Much of it surrounds camera use around man made water sources. Limited water means pretty easy locations to scout. Some have compared it to baiting, but that goes a little far to me. But, I've seen the same thing in SD for elk. The known springs and water sources usually have multiple cameras around them.

It got me thinking a bit about the technology we use in hunting and fishing. Trail cameras are incredible right now. Instant photos sent to your phone. Now, you still have to be out there to kill the critter, and have the skills to do so. But is a real time trail camera photo any different that me flying a drone over a location a half mile away?

And with fishing, our sonar technology is crazy. Side imaging and now the live imaging have really changed the game. I've not experienced the Panoptix/Livescope stuff other than YouTube, but it is pretty incredible. A guy fishing crappies was literally casting at a location as the fish were moving. He could cast to where they were based on the tree and it was nuts to see. Is it fishing or a video game?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing anyone who has a live camera or Panoptix (I'd love a Garmin in particular). But, at what point is technology significantly changing the outdoors in a negative way. I know I could argue trail cameras have been a positive for me as it gets me out and enjoying the preseason more. Our gear is getting better and better, we're more comfortable than ever in the field. We can shoot farther and cast further. I think for me fly fishing is fun in that minus your gear, it's still putting a fuzzy something in front of a fish. No sonar, just an educated guess on fish location and a well placed cast. Not that we should all go back to long bows and muzzleloaders!

Just thought it would be an interesting discussion. Where is the line?

 

[Bfishn]

I believe multiple states have already banned the cellular trail cameras at least during the season which I don't disagree with. I think B&C and P&Y have also came out with statements that using remote cameras even for scouting is beyond the scope of fair chase and not eligible for their record books.

Its hard to say where the line is, but all of this tech is certainly making us all more efficient. With fishing I think it will eventually result in lower limits imposed to help protect fish populations, Hunting is more difficult because you cant catch and release. It probably will result in lower tag numbers at some point if success rates climb.

 

[3Roosters]

Election voting machine counting technology could learn from some of this new game and fish technology.#$%^&>

 

[Duckslayer100]

I feel there's going to be a line drawn/crossed with advancements in fish finders. I realize that's a broken record, as ever since the invention of the "depth finder" people have been crying foul and lamenting that their fishing waters would soon be fished out.

I admit I felt that way a bit when underwater cameras became popular, but as they've firmly seated themselves as a tool in the toolbox, it's safe to say they are fairly limited in usefulness and don't necessarily cause fish to jump in your boat.

HOWEVER...I will say the new generation of live "radar" fish finders is borderline. Watching how some anglers are able to scan a water body from a single point, and basically get a blinking beacon on a school of fish 60 or 80 feet from the hole, seems as close to "cheating" as you can get.

The obvious factor here is the expense of these units firmly plants them on the outskirts of most Average Joe Fisherman's budget. However, as this technology and the components become cheaper, no doubt they'll someday be in line with our standard flashers today and be available to just about anyone.

I can't imagine a North Dakota slough lasting long with even a handful of guys outfitted with those kinds of units.

 

[Lapper]

The fish still have to bite. How many times have you sat above a flasher watching fish come in but never take the bait? I can’t imagine this tech being all that great on a ND slough. Most of the time the schools of fish are moving around so much that just knowing where one was for a few minutes wouldn’t help much and the panoptix is not really made to run and gun. Now, it some tech comes out that can show what’s below me before I even drill a hole, that would be a different story.

 

[Allen]

The fish still have to bite. How many times have you sat above a flasher watching fish come in but never take the bait? I can’t imagine this tech being all that great on a ND slough. Most of the time the schools of fish are moving around so much that just knowing where one was for a few minutes wouldn’t help much and the panoptix is not really made to run and gun. Now, it some tech comes out that can show what’s below me before I even drill a hole, that would be a different story.

You know you can just pour some water on the ice, then set your puck on the ice to see what's below you, right? At least, it works with my old FL-8.

 

[SDMF]

Regarding hunting big-game, IMO, the LRF becoming small and affordable is the most significant "outdoor" development since ammunition was put into brass cases. The LRF has exponentially increased lethality of every hunter who uses them.

The ubiquitous LRF has spawned a great deal of innovation in archery: Faster smoother bows (yes, we were on that path, but the LRF accelerated it), more sight pins/slider sights, skinnier arrows, more aerodynamic broad heads, etc.

ML's were also "on the path" of greater effectiveness @ longer range with the advent of in-line ignition systems. The LRF has made it so the only limiting factor to a ML's lethality is the limitations of whatever optics are legal.

Centerfire and rimfire rifles have been the most easily observed beneficiaries of the popularity of the LRF. Turrets and factory offering of "holdover" reticles in optics mounted upon rifles. One used to have to send the scope away for such things. The LRF has pushed projectile R&D light-years ahead. Projectile development has pushed barrel manufacturers to offer twist-rates to stabilize these new projectiles. Rifle manufacturers have had to embrace twist rates perhaps not in line with SAAMI specs and chamber rifles for cartridges that better meld chamber and mag-box confines. Ammo manufacturers have embraced that consumers have readily available means to easily put their published velocities and BC's to the test and have had to become exponentially more consistent lest they drive those consumers of loaded ammo to a reloading bench.

 

[BP338]

I still use hand calls when calling yotes...

 

[Captain Ahab]

I was just discussing this with a guy. I enjoy using electronics. It's been a lot of fun since I bought my first Vexilar and Lowrance HDS Gen 1 unit. That said, things are starting to get a little ridiculous. I see Garmin filed another patent that appears to be heading toward a Live 3D unit. The live imaging/sonar units help A LOT when it comes to schooling panfish. They help a descent amount walleye fishing by looking for structure/bottom change. Telling the difference in fish size and shape is helpful as well. That said, they are only as good of a tool as the operator and his or her ambition/knowledge and how the fish are cooperating. Sometimes it's just more frustrating watching the fish not cooperate. Some folks could own it and still not catch a cold and others can make the thing look like a total cheat tool. Lots of variables. I'm not sure when it will get where it's too much. I think we will know when we get there.

Maybe we will see tournaments/contests where people go back to the basics. Hand them a flasher and a lake map and say "here ya g, figure it out like a real man". Who knows...

 

[Bfishn]

The fish still have to bite. How many times have you sat above a flasher watching fish come in but never take the bait? I can’t imagine this tech being all that great on a ND slough. Most of the time the schools of fish are moving around so much that just knowing where one was for a few minutes wouldn’t help much and the panoptix is not really made to run and gun. Now, it some tech comes out that can show what’s below me before I even drill a hole, that would be a different story.

I would argue that a shallow ND slough is where some of this technology helps the most. Finding fish with 360 imaging or livescope can put you on the fish much faster and help you stay on them, rather than just drilling aimlessly and seeing a tiny cone of info on the vex. There is a reason all of the fishing shows are using these now for ice fishing. Yes right now they are spendy and cumbersome, but as the tech keeps improving, they will get smaller and cheaper to the point of being accessible to everybody.

 

[db-2]

Last night as i drank an old mill at the bar i was visiting with another guy about deer hunting.
He said he no longer hunts due to all the new stuff from the rifles that shoot 500 yards, the bows and he was big time not for trail cameras. Well if i would get a rifle permit my rifle was made in 1959 so it is not new stuff but my bow is not a recurve. The true flintlock hunters are the way muzzle hunting should be but if you want to use a single shot rifle, go for it.

I said in view of the fact you no longer hunt i do not need you making the rules for how i hunt. To each their own.
It seems every year, after season, someone come with things that need to be change and for the most part the change will fit their personal agenda and not mine. It is fine the way it is.

Yes it has changed. Now i get pictures from five different cameras on my computer when at one time my home made camera, sending the film away and getting nothing but blowing grass. Before that no cameras. Some of the changes has taken away from the thrill of the hunt. One time i never knew what to expect on those deer drives we would take. Found out during the drive.

My dad was born in 1911. I believe it was the forties before he could get a license to hunt whitetail. Have an article that back then it stated there were only 5000 deer in the state with most at the Turtle Mt or in the north east.

Deer hunting has come a long ways and i do agree there may be some problems with the way it has come.

Since 1998 i have harvested 7 deer with my bow. I feel i have given more back with all the trees i have planted and the 1000 of dollars spent on seed for food plots for the deer. My dad in all those years with the farm did not plant food plots for the wildlife. And my trail cameras have given me countess hours of enjoyment along with the shed hunt.
Success does not always mean the kill.

So hunt and fish the way you want but do not force your ideas on me and the way i am able hunt as i will not force my ideas on you and take away your ways. db

 

[Traxion]

In some ways technology in fishing can be compared to shooting long range. You have to know your equipment, practice with it, and then be able to execute to use the high end electronics. And to make a long range rifle shot. I personally have no issue with a guy who can shoot a deer at 1000 yards proficiently. I have no desire (or skill) to do it, but if he does it right and makes kill shots, more power to you. Fancy guns, high end fishing rods, etc. are all technological improvements that help us. But I drift more towards the things that can give us an unfair advantage. I do see that B & C and P & Y do not allow this as stated by BFishn. I'm not here to judge anyone or say what "should" be done. I just think it is a good discussion to have.


Here's a good example from this article-


https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/w...to-hunt-are-wireless-trail-cameras-fair-chase
Imagine this scenario. A chocolate-antlered, 10-point buck steps into an emerald green field of clover to feed. A hunter, sitting in his home office not far away, sees the buck emerge on his computer screen where a live-stream video feed of the food plot plays 24/7. He jumps up, grabs a gun in and sneaks out towards the clover plot.
Or, what about this? It’s Nov. 15 and at 8:30 a.m. a mature buck starts working a scrape along a cut corn field. At that exact moment a notification rings on a hunter’s phone. He clicks the notification and up pops a photo of this buck, standing in front of a scrape that he knows is only 200 yards away. He climbs down out of his ladder stand and begins to stalk towards the scrape location.
Does any of this make you uncomfortable?

What if that last scenario played out exactly the same, except the photo wasn’t sent until that night, and the hunter couldn’t act on it until the next day. Would that make you feel any differently?




- - - Updated - - -

I was just discussing this with a guy. I enjoy using electronics. It's been a lot of fun since I bought my first Vexilar and Lowrance HDS Gen 1 unit. That said, things are starting to get a little ridiculous. I see Garmin filed another patent that appears to be heading toward a Live 3D unit. The live imaging/sonar units help A LOT when it comes to schooling panfish. They help a descent amount walleye fishing by looking for structure/bottom change. Telling the difference in fish size and shape is helpful as well. That said, they are only as good of a tool as the operator and his or her ambition/knowledge and how the fish are cooperating. Sometimes it's just more frustrating watching the fish not cooperate. Some folks could own it and still not catch a cold and others can make the thing look like a total cheat tool. Lots of variables. I'm not sure when it will get where it's too much. I think we will know when we get there.

Maybe we will see tournaments/contests where people go back to the basics. Hand them a flasher and a lake map and say "here ya g, figure it out like a real man". Who knows...

I don't know much about them, but your tournament comment makes me think about "one fly" contests. Seems like a fun idea that puts fisherman against fisherman, and the fish.

 

[Reprobait]

I keep hoping that they would drop the perch limit. Maybe it would even out some of the boom/bust cycles and decent fishing would last longer. Maybe this 360 stuff will be the thing gets this done. This technology in the hands of the perch patrol or numbers of anglers as it gets cheaper could be really damaging to panfish populations. There seems to be no C&R ethic when it comes to perch.

 

[3Roosters]

I agree with dropping perch limit Repro but the catch and release comment isn't quite as easy as most of the time the perch are caught at a depth where it isnt conducive to releasing as they will most likely die if reeled in from deep water.

 

[zoops]

The fish still have to bite. How many times have you sat above a flasher watching fish come in but never take the bait? I can’t imagine this tech being all that great on a ND slough. Most of the time the schools of fish are moving around so much that just knowing where one was for a few minutes wouldn’t help much and the panoptix is not really made to run and gun. Now, it some tech comes out that can show what’s below me before I even drill a hole, that would be a different story.

This is probably starting to push the limits of fairness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggsAcj3v1OE&feature=emb_logo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBxzsXJEpf4

 

[eyexer]

I’d be ok with outlawing cameras for hunting