National Grasslands

[gst]

Ha. You think you actually change my day in any direction. You're a simple sociopath with your only outlet being the internet. Hope this is the legacy you're choosing to leave behind.

Aaaaannnnnd here you still are posting childish crap.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/how-spot-sociopath

• Superficial charm and good intelligence okay intelligence maybe and I did have a way with the ladies backin the day...
• Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking okay I do have the delusion that someday plainsman will actually post something factual
• Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations man I get nervous as hell even when a doe is coming into the stand
• Unreliability Well everyone seems to think I am pretty reliable when it comes ot calling out plainsmans shit.........
• Untruthfulness and insincerity Well I post links ot show facts and am pretty scincere when I have these discussion with you mike
• Lack of remorse and shame I do feel bad about constantly pointing out plainsmans bullshit and I am ashamed I am even wasting time discussing this with someone so petty as you mickey.
• Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior okay you smart psyco analysis fells need to explain that one better. Damn maybe the intelligence one isn;t as good as I hoped......
• Poor judgment and failure to learn by experience Okay, I admit to some poor judgement at times.....I mean looking back I shoulda known trying to to let a skunk go in school wouldn;t turn out so good. But I never did try it again.......
• Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love Well we give quite a bit of our time to a couple of different community things and there is nothing I love more than my family soooooo
• General poverty in major affective reactions Okay, I am not a big hugger so there is that. but I do share quite a bit of affection with my family and a few people that actually know me..........
• Specific loss of insight Um....okay people get tired of me sharing "insight" on here........
• Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations Well a few close friends may disagree. Hell I even laugh at their corney jokes like they're funny!!
• Fantastic and uninviting behavior with alcohol and sometimes without Well I am a pretty good dancer after a couple Crowns on the rocks.........
• Suicide threats rarely carried out Never made one.
• Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated I try my best to integrate my sex life with the wife as often as I can.....
• Failure to follow any life plan Had a plan from the time I was little to raise cows...........

Well from the definitions of a sociopath...... maybe you better look in another cracker jack box for your degree.

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Again, asking and accusing are different. I typed that slower so you can understand it a bit better. Btw, the career I have would also necessitate me suggesting you seek professional help in the mental health field. The way you attack any individual that disagrees with you (ones you've never met) screams sociopathic behavior. Of course, I'm no psychiatrist but a ditch digger could have figured you out by now. Regardless, it's the individual characteristics associated that really scare me.

.

Hey mike.........have we ever met?

 

[Trip McNeely]

gst...... why are you such a giant Mcfuckface? ....... nice chat guys. will
see you in a few months when the good squabbles start again.....

 

[raider]

just peeking in tonight and holly crap... vitamin d is free and enjoyable this time of year - take advantage of it...

the fish are biting...

 

[gst]

As far as digging for information, I didn't even have to lift a finger. It was offered to me. It appears I'm not alone in my judgement of your character. .

So someone that likely doesn;t like me for what ever reason shares a bit of gossip you do not bother to find out if it is true and you use that claim that is not true to make a petty personal veiled accusation that I beat my wife and kids in a private message becasue you do not have the balls to make it publicaly?

you see mike it does not bother me when petty people that have never met me make foolish untrue accusations based on gossip becasue the people that do know me know the truth. I am very comfortable with that and besides most often people that choose to engage in petty gossip often make themselves look the fool they are

What you are alone in is your poor judgement of someones truthfulness that "offered" this gossip to you. So if whomever "offered" you the information I beat my wife and kids would like ot come on here and verify that claim I would be interested to hear his "story".

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gst...... why are you such a giant Mcfuckface? ....... nice chat guys. will
see you in a few months when the good squabbles start again.....

ah some folks just bring it out man. That hurt more than the scociopath one though. Hey how you getting along with the Ronald McDonald statue?

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just peeking in tonight and holly crap... vitamin d is free and enjoyable this time of year - take advantage of it...

the fish are biting...

got a little too much vitamin D today in the hay field, sitting back enjoying the cool evening.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Is over grazing worse than a wild fire on these prairie grasses?

They are both beneficial. Grasses need herbivores to rough 'em up a little and fire gets rid of a lot of weed seeds leaving the grass roots zone intact. Right now all the private land around me looks over grazed.

The biggest problem grazing public ground is when it's wet, a rancher is understocked. No one notices. When it's dry everyone takes notice. John Q. Public may ask, why can't a rancher sell all of his cows during the dry and buy 'em all back when it's wet? Economic suicide.

Another reason is because a rancher can't take an animal out of a feedlot and dump it in the grasslands. His cows know how to survive. Let her out in the spring and she will get some grass here and water over there. In the fall she may be mixed up with several herds but when the first snow falls she will segregate and go home.

A rancher simply can't sell her during the dry and buy back a different cow during the wet years. She is not expendable.

Grasses look like shit right now. Need rain.

 

[gst]

Absolutely.

Somebody show this to plains pleeeaaaase.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE...prd3818907.pdf

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3-30 3. Maintain disturbance processes(fire, grazing) if required for habitatenhancement, restoration or speciesviability.

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Is over grazing worse than a wild fire on these prairie grasses?

Actually it depends on the timing of each john. A grass plant root growth will mimic its growth above ground. So if a fire from enough ungrazed residue left on these lands burns young grass plants hot enough early in the season it will do more damage than if a mature grass plant is grazed hard in the fall after it is mature. Completely grazing off residue height on mature plants in northern climes will impact snow retention and moisture early in spring months impacting plant health as well. But then yof course you hve that is a fire burns grasses off late as well.

If it is continually grazed short with no rest or recover period it is the most damaging. The problem is these Federal lands, that intensive grazing does not fit the agendas of those that file the law suits and it is tough to do on leased ground with rough terrain like many of the public lands. However some ideologies can be incorporated

there are studies where mob grazing mimicing the natural action of the buffalo in grazing these lands down hard in a once over system where hoof action and urine and manure are all beneficail have proven themselves to restore grazing lands. The ground may appear "over grazed" ot the uneducated or biased eye yet the hoof action actually tramples more plant matter into the ground than is consumed building organic matter.

fire can scarify seeds promoting germination, but without hoof action to grind those seeds into the ground they often lay on the surface for years.

Plaisman should like this one....

http://www.theeagle.com/landandlive...cle_3f2ca5f9-c86c-5604-a065-ebd3abaee741.html

 

[DirtyMike]

I recommend this for everyone.

 

[Stan's Dad]

If everyone put gaybe and prairiegunt on ignore. They'd literally be talking just to themselves.

Let's do this boys! LEEEROOOY JENKINS!

 

[gst]

Well it sure might do a sort on those guys that wish to make childish personal statements and petty foolish accusations so that we could actually have a decent conversation about the topic of the thread....



Ya, that might be a good idea. Thumbs Up

 

[lunkerslayer]

Well it sure might do a sort on those guys that wish to make childish personal statements and petty foolish accusations so that we could actually have a decent conversation about the topic of the thread....



Ya, that might be a good idea. Thumbs Up

I like your debates gst between you and the rest of the world. The ones that don't have any skin in the game should mind thier own business. Those are the same ones who complained over on the other site which goes to show who's the one really causing the major problems. Like I said if you don't like what is being posted don't read it otherwise you are making it out to be that this is" my own personal site and if I dont like you need to go becuase I know better look how popular I am. "Bullshit

 

[Allen]

Allen, there is a difference between over grazing and responsible grazing. As you may have read the range scientist you mention Kevin Sedevec who is very sharp was called upon by ranchers to speak to grazing height requirements that those people in the USFS like plains hat wanted to limit grazing significantly tried to implement a few years back

Kevin Sedevec pointed out that the stubble height requirements after grazing that were being proposed were actually taller than what some of the species of native grasses grew to......meaning to be in compliance these cattle would have ot be removed before they even got started grazing.

the link to a story on it is below.

Remember on these public lands the rancher who leases (often times long term 10 years) them is often times responsible for water and fencing. I'm sure their intent is to damage those grazing lands for the entire duration of their lease....................

Come on allen, one plainsman making these kinds of accusations on here is plenty.

You guys do know they do make cuts to grazing numbers in drought years right? Read the article..you will find both the rancher (I know Keith good cattleman and range manager) and the USFS gal says the range is in good condition.

http://bismarcktribune.com/news/sta...cle_dd341b8a-3a09-11e0-aa79-001cc4c03286.html


Hey Allen perhaps it is not these ranchers making long term impacts o the Grasslands........

http://bismarcktribune.com/news/sta...cle_70d83e09-725a-5aea-b307-821814c15c8a.html

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..........

Yep, there certainly is a difference between grazing and overgrazing. I suspect you are misinterpreting something there with the intent of Sedevec's work. While the stubble requirement may be higher than some of the vegetation, it is certainly not higher than all of the vegetation. It is plant species specific, so I can absolutely see where he can be asked if the stubble height requirement is greater than some native species and he would have to answer "yes", there are some short species of vegetation. What he should have been asked is if the stubble height proposed was reasonable given the totality of the grazing and the mixture of grasses and forbs in a given plot. I don't think I am accusing anyone of anything other than noting that your statement of "...meaning to be in compliance these cattle would have ot be removed before they even got started grazing." is not exactly true unless you know of a parcel with only a single species of grass that is naturally below the stubble requirement.



Umm, you do know the USFS provides fencing materials to the leaseholder and installs most (I won't say all) of the wells on the public lands, right? Has this changed?


Accusations? You mean where I have seen what I considered to be overgrazing in the past? I guess we could get into the symantecs and hire a range scientist to tell us which of us has a more proper idea of what constitutes overgrazing, but in general it's kind of like what the SCOTUS said about porn, it's tough to put it in writing, but you know it when you see it. One thing I will say though is that I don't see it nearly as much as I did 10-20 years ago.

 

[gst]

Allen, one question...have you read both the links I have provided? Especially this one? A simple yes or no will work.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE...prd3818907.pdf

Allen here is my statement you reference about investments of supplies and improvements.

"Remember on these public lands the rancher who leases (often times long term 10 years) them is often times responsible for water and fencing. I'm sure their intent is to damage those grazing lands for the entire duration of their lease...................."


there are differences between USFS and BLM lands as to what is provided and even within certain agencies there can be differences on each lease. Yes in some cases the USFS provides materials and in some cases even does the work

But as you can see my comment was a generalized one towards all public lands.
It also acknowledges in some cases the rancher does not make this outlay.

Allen please before insinuating overgrazing on the grasslands (then backpedaling and saying you haven;t seen much the last 10-20 years) read the link I shared and you will find this statement within it.

"SRT Response: As noted in the MCGA’s(Note: McKenzie County Grazing Association)original question, the SRT was not chargedwith determining the ecological status andtrend of the LMNG, and thus, our answer isstrictly our combined professional opinions.As to the functional status of ecologicalprocesses, that is an impossible question toanswer and of little if any relevance unlessecological conditions are poor, which is not thegeneral case for the LMNG. The SRT simplydid not find evidence that the generalecological condition and health of the LMNGwas being seriously damaged or compromised,as few if any areas appeared to be approachingan ecological threshold that would alterecological processes substantially andpermanently"

note LMNG is the Little Missouri National Grasslands.

If you wish to dwell more on claims of over grazing we certainly can, but how about we keep it to what is happening today and not 20 or 40 years ago.

 

[Allen]

gst, You crack me up.And, I backtrack nothing. I said I don't see it nearly as much nowadays as I have in years past. You could take a little lesson in full disclosure.LMNG = Little Missouri National Grasslands bwah hah hah, you don't say

 

[PrairieGhost]

They are both beneficial. Grasses need herbivores to rough 'em up a little and fire gets rid of a lot of weed seeds leaving the grass roots zone intact. Right now all the private land around me looks over grazed.

Range science classes broke it down a little more than that Fritz. When 25% of vegetation is removed by cattle it's beneficial. When you go beyond 50% it begins to be degrading. Take 80% and your damaging the range. In 1977, 78, and 79 I averaged walking 8 miles a day looking at range lands as related to grazing intensity, vegetative species and breeding bird species. I covered everything east of the Rockies to the Missouri River in Montana, North Dakota, and South Dakota. Everything west of Highway 281 in Nebraska and all of Wyoming east of the Rockies. We had to look at vegetation and birds on lightly grazed, moderately grazed, and heavily grazed public land. About half of it was overgrazed back in those days.

Short term crowd grazing is beneficial. The research biologists that developed this grazing technique was Allan Savory. He wrote much on how to fight desertification.

 

[gst]

gst, You crack me up.And, I backtrack nothing. I said I don't see it nearly as much nowadays as I have in years past. You could take a little lesson in full disclosure.LMNG = Little Missouri National Grasslands bwah hah hah, you don't say

Allen just sharing a few actual facts to offset anecdotal claims and observations. I believe I do a pretty good job of "full disclosure" as compared to most others here in the fact I generally include the link to the facts I share rather than offering simple stories.

Say by the way, I was wondering what back ground (you know experience.education) do you have to determine VORs as they relate to grazing anyways....

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Range science classes broke it down a little more than that Fritz. When 25% of vegetation is removed by cattle it's beneficial. When you go beyond 50% it begins to be degrading. Take 80% and your damaging the range. In 1977, 78, and 79 I averaged walking 8 miles a day looking at range lands as related to grazing intensity, vegetative species and breeding bird species. I covered everything east of the Rockies to the Missouri River in Montana, North Dakota, and South Dakota. Everything west of Highway 281 in Nebraska and all of Wyoming east of the Rockies. We had to look at vegetation and birds on lightly grazed, moderately grazed, and heavily grazed public land. About half of it was overgrazed back in those days.

Short term crowd grazing is beneficial. The research biologists that developed this grazing technique was Allan Savory. He wrote much on how to fight desertification.

Once again plains relies on his "experiences" from 40 years ago. A bit has changed since then including hte "range science classes" he took back then.

Timing of grazing on different varieties of grasses is more critical than plains mentions, actually he doesn;t mention that. I have been ot a couple seminars Ray Banister from Mt has put on about intensive grazing. Plains and I had a discussion where I shared a fair bit of information on grazing that Mr Banister has developed. In that conversation plains had less than flattering things to say about Mr. Banisters methods he has developed largely on his own experiences yet Mr Banisters results speak for them selves.

Rangeland management has came a Loooong ways in 40 plus years since plains was walking the soles off his boots.

http://www.farmandranchguide.com/news/livestock/montana-rancher-rejuvenates-pastures-with-boom-bust-grazing/article_5855b538-a6ac-11e2-a401-0019bb2963f4.html

But you see even though these "graze it to the dirt/tooth marks on the rocks" plans with rest and recovery have been proven to work to actually rejuvenate range land, folks like Allen and plains would be claiming that the range has been permanently damaged instead of being rejuvenated.

From the USDA link I shared earlier........

"More than 74,000 letters and postcards werereceived on the draft and final plans, and theEISs for the Northern Great Plains planningarea."

How many of those 74,000 people do you suppose were even from ND?

How many know anything at all about rangeland management?

How many know the difference between a forb and a grass plant?

How many even know which end of a cow.....well you get my drift.

But I would bet a goodly portion of those public comments spoke about over grazing and the impact it has on the environment. Enough so that a plan to end grazing on the grasslands was proposed but declined.

The point of all this is the very folks plains likes ot share links from like the Seirra Club and Wildlands Defenders ect.... are seeking ot end all grazing of public multiple usage lands. Ranchers today know that, changes are being made often times driven by ranchers themselves to better these public range lands.

Yet people like plains try to ignore and deny the facts instead claiming ranchers "whining" about fire risks close hunting seasons.

the trouble is he never provides sources to back up his claims and when he does share a link.........they almost inevitably have groups like those environmental radicals mentions as their sources of information.

Hows that for "full disclosure" allen?

 

[Allen]

Much like yourself, I grew up farming and ranching.

While I haven't stayed quite as intimately in touch with it, my 80 yr old stepfather still runs cows and I help as I can. So while we are playing 20 questions, do you see anything below that resembles overgrazing to you? Just curious as I ran across these this weekend.

A.)


B.)


C.)


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Oops, A and B are from the same pasture. My pics of the third pasture didn't turn out, but looked a lot like A and B.

 

[gst]

Well you see allen for those that understand range management and grasslands a bit more than from ridin around with Grandpa there are many mitigating factors one should consider before making a blanket claim of over grazing. (not that one can;t learn plenty from their Grandpa)

So essentially what you are telling us is that little to none of your livlihood is tied ot the condition of rangelands you run cattle on nor have you any educational back ground in range management..........yet you are somehow more............okay then.

first of all what is apparently obvious to most is that your A & B pics are of the top of a hill in what apparently is rocky soil with very little top soil. (you didn;t see any tooth marks on the rocks did you?)

We don;t see what is in the rest of the pasture those cattle are contained in do we? Perhaps on the other side of that hill lies a lush green valley where the deer and antelope are playing?

We don;t know if this is in an area that has been short of moisture so that grasses never grew and have been this short all summer or if this was two foot tall grass ate down to the ground after 3 months of continuous grazing.

We do not know if this is a portion of an once over intensive grazing rotation where this land is grazed for 7 days and rested for 358

We do not know if this is a once in a many year ocurance as drought grips much of our state and people try to hang on to a core portion of their herd or an ongoing every year occurance.

I can certainly continue with 16 more questions, but these first 4 questions serve to hi lite the point I am trying ot make once again. Those 74,000 people commenting on the range management plan for the LMNG (you got that acronym figured out right) likely know less than you from growing up on a ranch many years ago.

And yet they and the orgs that plainsman like ot copy and paste links from like the Seirra Club ans Wildlands Defenders and BCHA are impacting the management of public lands in an attempt to move them away from the multiple use promises they have existed under for generations.

Of course there are examples of over grazing....different producers different years ect........hell we have a spring pasture we get pairs out of the slop of the corrals in the spring on that is over grazed every year. Most years we allow it to recover without any thing grazing on if for 10 1/3 months, but for 1 1/2 months it looks FAR worse than the A & B pics you shared especially this spring before it rained.

But when you have govt range land scientists claiming the LMNG are NOT being over grazed and ecosystems damaged in the link I shared, ...........I thought that may have put an end to the claims and stories and accusations and "discouraging words" . (ya ya ya I know it was not you claiming ranchers shut down hunting seasons)


So what exactly was YOUR point in all this? That ranchers want to intentionally damage public lands on ten year leases and eventually be forced off these lands as the public driving by in their Prius sees a few dried up cow turds and short grass?

???
I have to some on here's nausea, repeatedly over the years made "full disclosure" that MY point is these environmental/ conservation groups are removing multiple uses from our public lands such as logging, grazing, off roading ect...that will EVENTUALLY include hunting and that sportsmen and ranchers and loggers can ill afford to be making foolish claims and accusations like we see on these sites over the years.

So what exactly is your point?

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I am curious allen, are you the type pf person that would post pictures of a pasture in an extreme drought area where someone is trying to keep a portion of their herd after selling off 70% of the rest of their cattle and claim these folks were intentionally over grazing their range lands to try and prove some point in an internet argument?

I never used ot think so.

We have one fella suggesting those same people are "whining" about the fire danger and trying ot close hunting seasons already on here that has a history of that, do we really need another?

 

[Fly Carpin]

and yet they and the orgs that plainsman like ot copy and paste links from like the seirra club ans wildlands defenders and bcha are impacting the management of public lands in an attempt to move them away from the multiple use promises they have existed under for generations.

bhca:

 

[Allen]

Pics are representative of the entire pasture. I don't need to cherry pick the locations within the pasture. Besides, shouldn't the grazing be done at the proper level for each pasture and not lumped all together? I know we do that as there are differences between each pasture.

Nice snot-assed remark about grandpa. Do you have a range science pedigree I should know about?

 

[gst]

bhca:

What, these guys want to end grazing o public lands too? Jeesh.

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See allen that is why Acronym explanation is important...........

Why are you getting bent out of shape over the Grandpa comment........you spoke of your father in law........pretty different deal right?

What exactly is your point in your posting about grazing allen you never answered that?

As to my pedigree, range land management and grazing is something that interests me especially the last few years as I have attended several grazing symposiums and meetings both here and in Canada. I try and read as much as I can on the subject and am transitioning our operation into a once over rotational system.

It is pretty interesting stuff.