Feel That? Another Lead Ammo Ban attempt is in the wind...

PrairieGhost

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I knew this old guy who loved to hunt divers. He also liked to drink a lot. He also liked to drink a lot while he cooked and before he ate. He also did a poor job of getting shot out of his birds. He had his appendix out at about 60 years old, and the thing was so full of lead shot it looked like one of those bullet bags the mountain men carried.

The old fellow was sharp as a tack.
 


deleted_account

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I knew this old guy who loved to hunt divers. He also liked to drink a lot. He also liked to drink a lot while he cooked and before he ate. He also did a poor job of getting shot out of his birds. He had his appendix out at about 60 years old, and the thing was so full of lead shot it looked like one of those bullet bags the mountain men carried.

The old fellow was sharp as a tack.

download.jpg
 

Enslow

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The CDC isnt political at all. OMF! Banning lead bullets nationwide will have nothing to do with the health of animals or people it will have everything to do with more govt control. The amount of lead fragments that are spread throughout meat is directly related to the type of bullets being used. I wont use barnes because that company greatly profits from liberal california and would love lead bullets to be banned nationwide.
 


deleted_account

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The CDC isnt political at all. OMF! Banning lead bullets nationwide will have nothing to do with the health of animals or people it will have everything to do with more govt control. The amount of lead fragements that is spread throughout meat is directly related to the type of bullets being used. I wont use barnes because that company greatly profits from liberal california and would love lead bullets to be banned nationwide.

Barnes bullets kill things more deader. Just sayin..................
 

Enslow

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And they support the lead ban in california.
 

deleted_account

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And they support the lead ban in california.

copper VOR-TX bullets won the American Hunter Ammunition Product of the Year Golden Bullseye Award from the NRA Publications. Despite that honor, the winning manufacturer, Barnes Bullets, opposes banning lead. The company acknowledges that after 30 years of making copper bullets, starting well before longstanding concerns about lead had translated into policy, they've found that copper bullets "deliver the best terminal performance on game” (although it's hard on the manufacturing tools). And yet, "Barnes has not funded or supported efforts to further the advancement of any lead ban, nor will we ever."

“We don’t support the legislation. We think this type of legislation is bad for hunting, bad for the base. People shoot lead-core ammunition because it’s cheaper to shoot. I know some hunters in California who have put their guns up over this. That’s not good for our sport. Bans like this hurt the future of the sport for everyone.”
 

Enslow

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That is great to hear but a lead ban would make them the huge dollars nonetheless.
 

ItemB

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I knew this old guy who loved to hunt divers. He also liked to drink a lot. He also liked to drink a lot while he cooked and before he ate. He also did a poor job of getting shot out of his birds. He had his appendix out at about 60 years old, and the thing was so full of lead shot it looked like one of those bullet bags the mountain men carried.

The old fellow was sharp as a tack.

You don't poop out the lead shot? I let my gizzard grind it up.
 


muskelllunge13

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Hey Guys who like to eat Lead.... since you are posting my Name... guess Ill speak up. Nope Im not from California,born and raised in Nodak, but I have deer hunted Blacktails there. Yes those pictures are real... but the lead in the ground venison was dust not fragments you can feel with your tongue. I spent a hour under fluoroscopy ( thats Xray for those that don't know) digging out all of those areas that lit up. You could not feel it with your fingers, nor would you with your tongue. If you are interested in the real story of this read on, if not stop! I am a big hunter ask any of my friends, have shot killed and eaten 100's of deer, antelope,elk, and moose over the years Rifle, bow, Muzzy. I also am a big bird hunter and yes shoot shotguns on top of my favorite way which is Falconry. I was asked to be on the Board of The Peregrine Fund 10 years ago to over see the Archives of American Falconry which is a museum funded by Falconers and housed in the Peregrine Fund. When I first went to a board meeting to see if I wanted to join, one of their scientists was presenting a paper on lead poisoning in California Condors that the Peregrine Fund was releasing in Arizona. They showed a mule deer shot with the same bullets I had used for 20 years a .270 with Nosler Partition bullets ,a plain x ray of the chest was done. In this X-ray you could see lead fragments (which are dust) as far back as mid backstraps. I'm thinking wow Ive been eating a lot of that stuff the last 40 years... My son who was in Medical School at UND was planning a required research project and when I talked to him about the X-ray, said we should check on our own deer meat. My Idea of checking the donated meat for Hunters for Hungry was it was meat we had not touched, just general deer shot in Nodak...Plus I had been a member of Safari Club for years, thought we should know what we were giving away. So we picked up 100 one lb packages processed by 6 different butchers and threw them mixed together in a CT scanner (X-ray machine) to see what it showed. My personal thougt was there might be a couple fragments on some in the X-ray. I about fell off my chair when the image came out. 60% of the packages had lead dust showing up in the X-ray.
There was never a covert plan to make lead bullet illegal, I still have quite a few Nosler's ballistic as well as soft tip lead. But do I use them for shooting big game in the chest..hell no. Do I use them for target practice ,yes. As Ive told patients, friends and others if you feel you must shoot lead, shoot the deer in the head or neck, cut off the base of neck (no neck roast) or switch to a safer and better bullet like Barnes like I have. I had never shot Barnes before seeing the X-rays. Have I ever said lead bullets should be outlawed,No. It was the Minnesota big game biologist that initially was quoted that I was full of s&^t that then xr-ayed his own home butchered venison and found 40% of his packages had lead fragments in them that did the study shooting all kinds of bullets into sheep carcass and showed that in a high velosity rifle with a standard lead tipped bullet that the lead fragments will be found up to 1.5 ft from the entrance and exit wound (thats 3' in diameter).
Ok some more education for you on the side effect of lead.... yep if you are a adult it takes a lot of lead to make you sick, your brain is formed its not a neurotoxin unless in very high levels. Not the same in kids, pregnant women or women going to have kids. Low levels of lead doesn't kill them either.... just makes em a little dumber..... like about 15 IQ points. Not a big deal if you have a good IQ in the first place. Yep I grew up eating this stuff, I'm not dumb... fed it to my kids.... wished I hadn't. As a M.D. my recommendation is to switch to non fragmenting bullet like barnes if you are going to feed your venison to your kids or wife if planning kids. Period....

Unlike most in Nodak my dad was not a hunter, I had to learn to hunt and fish by myself, did a lot of reading still do, still learn things yep from this site Thanks Volmer! As a kid and young man reading the old outdoor writers of Sports Afield & Field and Stream.. I was taught as a good hunter you should be good conservationist.. protect and save the game we enjoy hunting as well as all other wildlife in nature. My life has alway been centered on this even though I very conservative politically. As a Physician it is my job to help protect the health of people of North Dakota and this is the true reason why this information was researched...
You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink though.... BTW if you want to eat more lead, move to Flint Michigan!! There were some guys that though it was ok there also...
 

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Forgive my ignorance muskellunge, is there a peer-reviewed paper I can read on this? You may have just convinced me to make the switch exclusively to Barnes and maybe at least copper plated for upland.
 

guywhofishes

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I am confused how so much lead ends up in all this venison. Are people texas heart shotting all their deer? How much lead could possibly end up in your average "decent" vitals (lung/heart) shot? Maybe some retained in ribs on opposite side?

maybe too many "running deer" shots? Driving/pushing/party hunting where deer are shot from lots of goofy angles? This all seems counter-intuitive to me anyway.

How can tiny "unround" fragments penetrate well past the the point where they part from the main bullet seems goofy.

And if they do... Don't they show trauma in the flesh? People keep/grind coagulated flesh for burger? I sure don't.
 

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I am confused how so much lead ends up in all this venison. Are people texas heart shotting all their deer? How much lead could possibly end up in your average "decent" vitals (lung/heart) shot? Maybe some retained in ribs on opposite side?

maybe too many "running deer" shots? Driving/pushing/party hunting where deer are shot from lots of goofy angles? This all seems counter-intuitive to me anyway.

How can tiny "unround" fragments penetrate well past the the point where they part from the main bullet seems goofy.

And if they do... Don't they show trauma in the flesh? People keep/grind coagulated flesh for burger? I sure don't.

I suppose if the dust is as fine as he is describing, it could pass through flesh without showing visible tissue damage. Maybe even "between" individual cells? I don't know. Trying to figure it out too.
 

PrairieGhost

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I spent a hour under fluoroscopy

Musk13 I did the same thing with Canvasbacks for two weeks before season. Caught them with an airboat and dip net with two million candlepower lights. Run a couple hundred live Cans looking at the gizzard and body shot. Before season started. 30% body shot, 2.5% ingested shot. Body shot was old, but the ingested is a death sentence so it was all new. Picked up probing for Potamogeton pectinatus tubers I expect.
 


KDM

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Finding lead fragments in meat does NOT translate into lead poisoning. Having read dozens of scientific papers on the subject, in every study, the results are left up to interpretation. In many instances, the paper was based on a SINGLE individual that was found with several lead pellets in their appendix or had swallowed a large lead object. Many of these studies are based on hunter gatherer societies such as the Inuit people of the far north who eat nothing but lead killed meat. Even the CDC study done on a cohort from ND indicated that the consumption of meat killed with lead bullets did NOT increase lead levels in participants above the background lead levels for the population. While I am in no mood to engage in verbal swordplay, suffice it to say I am not convinced lead fragments, while present in game meat, pose a higher threat of lead poisoning than drinking the water from numerous places in the country. There are literally thousands of locations in this nation where lead levels in the groundwater, exceed those levels found in the blood chemistry of study subjects or participants and yet these locations receive little if any notoriety as being unsafe to live there. I refuse to listen to the "Chicken Little" proclamations and fear mongering concerning lead bullets. Research and Data do it for me.
 

SDMF

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Muskelllunge13, it's very obvious that the lead is there, no argument from me about that. This isn't really an argument either, just some questions regarding the effects of the lead that is present. The questions I have though are, "Is the lead soluble/bioavailable, or does it just pass through?" Then, let's say that a deer steak remains in a human digestive system for 24-36hrs, is there any info regarding what happens to lead with a 24-36hr soak in gastric juices? Does the lead settle out and remain in the digestive system longer than the carrier meal?

Guy, lets look @ the 2 most popular sizes of deer hunting projectiles. 150gn 30-06 or 130gn 270Win both run ~3K fps and most factory rifles chambered for these rounds are 1:10" twist. The bullet turns 1.2 times/ft. So 3000fps x 1.2 turns/ft x 60 sec = 216,000 RPM. There's an awful lot of energy available to spin fragments well away from the initial wound channel.

It'd be interesting to see mocked up ballistic gelatin deer with hide/bones etc. Unfortunately that costs money and whomever funds the research becomes the political ping-pong ball. If it's done on a college campus there's automatically a "left-wing" bias implied. If it's done by Barnes, Nosler, or Hornady you get the "they just wanna push their mono-metal bullets" argument. I doubt Federal, Winchester, or Remington would be all that excited to see the results of their very popular "High-Shok, Power-Point, or Core-Lokt" offerings published for all to see.
 

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SDMF, since the bullets are designed to expend all energy upon impact, do you think the energy is more transferred out, like a wide cone shape, or more so forward? (I would guess it matters which bullet too, the softer the bullet, the wider the cone).
 

SDMF

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SDMF, since the bullets are designed to expend all energy upon impact, do you think the energy is more transferred out, like a wide cone shape, or more so forward? (I would guess it matters which bullet too, the softer the bullet, the wider the cone).

Ballistic tip, varmageddon, hollow-point varmint, Hornady SX/Speer TNT/Sierra Blitz King type bullets are the only ones that are really designed to expend all of their energy upon impact. Everything else is designed for some level of penetration. The more the bullet is designed to penetrate, the more likely that its energy transfer is a narrower cone. When I look at high-speed video of bullet performance within ballistic geletin it looks like there's an awful lot of damage that happens BEHIND the bullet. That's the long way around I really have no idea nor do I have the technical background to do the research and publish conclusions.
 

guywhofishes

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I suppose if the dust is as fine as he is describing, it could pass through flesh without showing visible tissue damage. Maybe even "between" individual cells? I don't know. Trying to figure it out too.

But if the particles are that fine then its penetration ability would be weak (kinetic). Unless incredible spinning velocity as sdmf points out.

I'm not arguing it's BS that people find it in xrays/images... Just trying to wrap my mind around circumstances where it occurs. In my mind it must be limited to "gory" massive damage events. Which for me are rare and when they do occur that meat is NOT going in the grind pile. The "many" (high %) of packages of ground meat that supposedly end up containing it blows my mind. Maybe a few less blue nummies for the goofball who's feeding the grinder? :)
 
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