Habitat Hunting Access Summit

[BrockW]

You are not going to divert any money away from the military industrial complex. They have more non-governmental non-profit lobbyists than the wildlife industry has non-governmental non-profits.

I think you’re probably right. But it would be a lot cooler if they would!

 

[CatDaddy]

The answer is not 0. 1 has been found dead. A couple more were found still alive but in clinical end stages of the disease where the landowner in one case and a hunter in the other were able to walk right up to the deer.

The one the hunter found and ended up shooting while the GF warden was on his way weighed 88 lbs.

I also know plenty of landowners who support the game and fish and the CWD management BMPs. Some even wrote in testimony to oppose 1151. 2 even gave verbal testimony. I think your echo chamber is in full effect.

Doing nothing is not a viable or wise option. And it is not the right thing to do.

You shot down my "covid panic logic" in previous posts. Now you come back with the fact that 1, yes 1, deer has been confirmed dead from CWD and we should be alarmed? Seems to me like covid type fear mongering that we all endured. Try again. You've clearly been drinking some Kool-Aid.

 

[BrockW]

You shot down my "covid panic logic" in previous posts. Now you come back with the fact that 1, yes 1, deer has been confirmed dead from CWD and we should be alarmed? Seems to me like covid type fear mongering that we all endured. Try again. You've clearly been drinking some Kool-Aid.

Yea, we’re single digit prevalence in a couple areas. I wouldn’t expect to see bunches of animals. That’s the point of the baiting bans. To not exacerbate spread of the disease, both in prevalence and geographic spread.

But look at the research being done in Arkansas and Wyoming right now. Arkansas is showing 34% of their positive animals are reaching end stage CWD. Take 100 positive animals, of those that don’t die from predation, hunter harvest, or other fairly normal causes of death, the rest die from end stage CWD. Thats more than predation can account for in a lot of areas of the country.

Wyoming is doing a GPS collar study where all of their collared bucks and half of the collared does were dead at around a year. I believe that article has been shared on this forum before.

I’ve talked to folks who live in the south Saskatchewan river valley, and their deer heard is nothing like it once was, both in deer numbers and in deer quality.

How anyone can look at these things and think this is “covid” is beyond me.

Hell, I talked to a Game warden in Colorado in one of their high prevalence areas, and he gets 6-10 calls a month about a sick CWD deer stumbling around in the ditch or in someone’s yard.

The facts are there, whether or not once chooses to see them is another story.

 

[BrockW]

This bull was wounded and 3 weeks later this is all that was left.

I have a buddy just this year that shot a mule deer and just over night the coyotes reduced the entire deer to a head, some bones and fur.

And somehow with single digit prevalence people can’t figure out why they don’t see CWD deer walking around every where. It’s almost like they can’t understand basic math. ~5% prevalence in an area means 5 out of 100 deer in that area have the disease.

Some will die from predation, some hunter harvest, some hit by a car, etc., and as we’ve already seen, a handful make it to end stage CWD. Without a doubt some of those never get seen or found. But as prevalence grows, it starts to become common place, as the GPS collar data shows quite clearly.

 

[CatDaddy]

This bull was wounded and 3 weeks later this is all that was left.

I have a buddy just this year that shot a mule deer and just over night the coyotes reduced the entire deer to a head, some bones and fur.

And somehow with single digit prevalence people can’t figure out why they don’t see CWD deer walking around every where. It’s almost like they can’t understand basic math. ~5% prevalence in an area means 5 out of 100 deer in that area have the disease.

Some will die from predation, some hunter harvest, some hit by a car, etc., and as we’ve already seen, a handful make it to end stage CWD. Without a doubt some of those never get seen or found. But as prevalence grows, it starts to become common place, as the GPS collar data shows quite clearly.

How does 5% CWD positive of the entire population equate to 1 death in the entire state? That's the gap I don't understand. It's like % positive covid infection vs. death rate and inciting a riot over fear. I'm not asking about the validity of other state's "studies". I'm asking about our state.

 

[CatDaddy]

This bull was wounded and 3 weeks later this is all that was left.

I have a buddy just this year that shot a mule deer and just over night the coyotes reduced the entire deer to a head, some bones and fur.

And somehow with single digit prevalence people can’t figure out why they don’t see CWD deer walking around every where. It’s almost like they can’t understand basic math. ~5% prevalence in an area means 5 out of 100 deer in that area have the disease.

Some will die from predation, some hunter harvest, some hit by a car, etc., and as we’ve already seen, a handful make it to end stage CWD. Without a doubt some of those never get seen or found. But as prevalence grows, it starts to become common place, as the GPS collar data shows quite clearly.

And yes, asshole, I understand "basic math". In fact, I understand complicated math. It's agendas I don't understand.

 

[BrockW]

How does 5% CWD positive of the entire population equate to 1 death in the entire state? That's the gap I don't understand. It's like % positive covid infection vs. death rate and inciting a riot over fear. I'm not asking about the validity of other state's "studies". I'm asking about our state.

Well for one it’s not referring to the entire population. It’s just the prevalence in that area. There’s counties/units that don’t have any positives and are likely at 0% prevalence.

But 2….just because we’ve only found 1 dead (but at least 2 very near death), doesn’t mean that’s the only ones that have died. You don’t find every deer that’s died from a mountain lion, or a coyote, or EHD. For Pete’s sake, hunters don’t even find every deer they shoot!

So how would one expect to find every dead deer from CWD in a unit sized area with 5% prevalence?

But everywhere you look, once you start getting into high prevalence. You start seeing more dead deer, more sick deer, simply because a high percentage of that local population is infected.

The folks in Arkansas had the Cabelas family foundation come down to fund some research. A couple days of driving around and they found an end stage CWD deer standing in the road like it was lost. Stumbling down into the ditch. They could walk right up to it.

 

[CatDaddy]

Well for one it’s not referring to the entire population. It’s just the prevalence in that area. There’s counties/units that don’t have any positives and are likely at 0% prevalence.

But 2….just because we’ve only found 1 dead (but at least 2 very near death), doesn’t mean that’s the only ones that have died. You don’t find every deer that’s died from a mountain lion, or a coyote, or EHD. For Pete’s sake, hunters don’t even find every deer they shoot!

So how would one expect to find every dead deer from CWD in a unit sized area with 5% prevalence?

But everywhere you look, once you start getting into high prevalence. You start seeing more dead deer, more sick deer, simply because a high percentage of that local population is infected.

The folks in Arkansas had the Cabelas family foundation come down to fund some research. A couple days of driving around and they found an end stage CWD deer standing in the road like it was lost. Stumbling down into the ditch. They could walk right up to it.

So are there areas in ND higher than 5% prevalence? Do we find dead deer there? More than 1 in the history of ND? Oh, and 2 that were "very near death"? Are coyotes more of an issue? Should we be focused on them instead?

 

[Fritz the Cat]

The latest from the National Insitute of Health Oct. 24, 2024:

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/news-events/cwd-prion-structure

"Scientists at NIAID’s Rocky Mountain Laboratories in Hamilton, Montana, determined the CWD structure from the brain tissue from a naturally infected white-tailed deer. They isolated the prions and froze them in glass-like ice. Then, using electron microscopy techniques, they developed a 3-D electron density map that indicated the detailed shapes of the protein molecules within the prion structure. This involved taking nearly 80,000 video clips of the sample, magnified 105,000 times the original size, at various orientations. They marked prion filaments in the video clips and collected more than 500,000 overlapping sub-images. They isolated about 7,300 of the highest quality sub-images and then used supercomputers to generate a 3-D density map and a molecular model to fit the map."

How about an actual picture instead of artistic drawings and 3-D ribbons.

 

[BrockW]

So are there areas in ND higher than 5% prevalence? Do we find dead deer there? More than 1 in the history of ND? Oh, and 2 that were "very near death"? Are coyotes more of an issue? Should we be focused on them instead?

I think one of those areas is like 7% in mule deer bucks? Not sure what average is across both sexes and both species for that area. Still fairly low. I’d like to keep it that way.

Focused on coyotes how? I mean aside from hunting coyotes are going to do what they’re going to do. I’d guess they have pretty minimal impacts on deer populations overall. Doe fawn counts would seem to support that.

 

[Freedom]

Deer gets disease, deer becomes more likely to be coyote lunch, deer becomes coyote lunch. Limits evidence. I'm not big on current management strategies but making it out to be a hoax is kinda ridiculous although common on this forum

 

[Freedom]

The latest from the National Insitute of Health Oct. 24, 2024:

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/news-events/cwd-prion-structure

"Scientists at NIAID’s Rocky Mountain Laboratories in Hamilton, Montana, determined the CWD structure from the brain tissue from a naturally infected white-tailed deer. They isolated the prions and froze them in glass-like ice. Then, using electron microscopy techniques, they developed a 3-D electron density map that indicated the detailed shapes of the protein molecules within the prion structure. This involved taking nearly 80,000 video clips of the sample, magnified 105,000 times the original size, at various orientations. They marked prion filaments in the video clips and collected more than 500,000 overlapping sub-images. They isolated about 7,300 of the highest quality sub-images and then used supercomputers to generate a 3-D density map and a molecular model to fit the map."

How about an actual picture instead of artistic drawings and 3-D ribbons.

Sounds like a picture to me, perhaps understanding the words you shared is more of the problem?

 

[BrockW]

The latest from the National Insitute of Health Oct. 24, 2024:

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/news-events/cwd-prion-structure

"Scientists at NIAID’s Rocky Mountain Laboratories in Hamilton, Montana, determined the CWD structure from the brain tissue from a naturally infected white-tailed deer. They isolated the prions and froze them in glass-like ice. Then, using electron microscopy techniques, they developed a 3-D electron density map that indicated the detailed shapes of the protein molecules within the prion structure. This involved taking nearly 80,000 video clips of the sample, magnified 105,000 times the original size, at various orientations. They marked prion filaments in the video clips and collected more than 500,000 overlapping sub-images. They isolated about 7,300 of the highest quality sub-images and then used supercomputers to generate a 3-D density map and a molecular model to fit the map."

How about an actual picture instead of artistic drawings and 3-D ribbons.

It’s funny, or maybe concerning, that you guys are actually serious about this “show me a picture” thing. Especially given that there are pictures of prions all over the research publications.

Case western laughed when I showed them what Dusty said.

 

[CatDaddy]

I think one of those areas is like 7% in mule deer bucks? Not sure what average is across both sexes and both species for that area. Still fairly low. I’d like to keep it that way.

Focused on coyotes how? I mean aside from hunting coyotes are going to do what they’re going to do. I’d guess they have pretty minimal impacts on deer populations overall. Doe fawn counts would seem to support that.

I'm not sure - your second post was what a coyote did to your buddy's elk. I hear coyote EVERY. SINGLE. SIT. while we're hunting. I even have a trail cam pic of a young deer with obvious sign she was attacked - and survived - a coyote encounter. I have yet to see an obvious CWD afflicted deer on cam. Or find a dead deer that I question may have been emaciated from CWD. Or seen one in the field. Help me actually understand why you're so passionate. I can appreciate that you've bought in HARD to the CWD rhetoric, but are you too deep to actually pull back and see what reality is? We as ND hunters don't share your reality.

 

[BrockW]

Deer gets disease, deer becomes more likely to be coyote lunch, deer becomes coyote lunch. Limits evidence. I'm not big on current management strategies but making it out to be a hoax is kinda ridiculous although common on this forum

Now that’s a take I can understand and connect to. I get it. This is a tough issue. Rightfully so, hunters have vested interest in their deer herds. It’s not easy or comforting knowing we have limited options dealing with this disease. The uncertainty around the future is not something that’s makes a guy feel good.

But without a doubt, the best management practices are influencing disease progression on the landscape. The states that follow them, show less prevalences over time, or it takes decades longer to get to high prevalences, they show less geographic spread. It is undeniable.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

It’s funny, or maybe concerning, that you guys are actually serious about this “show me a picture” thing. Especially given that there are pictures of prions all over the research publications.

Case western laughed when I showed them what Dusty said.

These type drawings are everywhere. You have an actual picture?

 

[BrockW]

We as ND hunters don't share your reality.

I don’t think you speak for “we as nd hunters”. I think, out of 100k hunters give or take in this state, there’s a small subset of very vocal bullies that are driving this effort, and some of the Ag community is happy to leverage that anger against the GF. I say bullies because that’s all they are. They don’t have a good argument, so they resort to conspiracy theories, ad hominem attacks, and personal attacks. That’s why they block everyone who disagrees with them.

But I didn’t buy into anything. I’m a fact oriented person. When this issue first popped up, I went and gathered as much information as I could. Talked to every veterinarian, researcher, big game biologist that I could. Dozens and dozens of folks around the country, even in Canada. I sought out the folks Dusty referenced in his claims and talked directly to those folks. I found the researchers whose work he (incorrectly) cited, and called them too.

I didn’t just call em up and ask them for the script. I asked them legitimate questions, I asked them to show me the evidence. Explain the research to me, in detail. If I would’ve found anything that indicated to me there was something fishy going on, that this was a conspiracy, or a nonissue, there’s no way I would’ve dealt with all this BS for the last 2 years. I might’ve even been on your side.

Instead, I went looking and I found the exact opposite of something fishy or a nonissue. I found consistent answers, consistent research backed up by data and verifiable evidence. I found evidence that supports what these scientists have been telling us. And I’m not going to just sit by and watch selfish interests damage our public resources for the benefit of a few. I’m going to follow the facts and the evidence and do right by those resources.

 

[BrockW]

These type drawings are everywhere. You have an actual picture?

A bunch.

 

[CatDaddy]

It’s funny, or maybe concerning, that you guys are actually serious about this “show me a picture” thing. Especially given that there are pictures of prions all over the research publications.

Case western laughed when I showed them what Dusty said.

I don’t think you speak for “we as nd hunters”. I think, out of 100k hunters give or take in this state, there’s a small subset of very vocal bullies that are driving this effort, and some of the Ag community is happy to leverage that anger against the GF. I say bullies because that’s all they are. They don’t have a good argument, so they resort to conspiracy theories, ad hominem attacks, and personal attacks. That’s why they block everyone who disagrees with them.

But I didn’t buy into anything. I’m a fact oriented person. When this issue first popped up, I went and gathered as much information as I could. Talked to every veterinarian, researcher, big game biologist that I could. Dozens and dozens of folks around the country, even in Canada. I sought out the folks Dusty referenced in his claims and talked directly to those folks. I found the researchers whose work he (incorrectly) cited, and called them too.

I didn’t just call em up and ask them for the script. I asked them legitimate questions, I asked them to show me the evidence. Explain the research to me, in detail. If I would’ve found anything that indicated to me there was something fishy going on, that this was a conspiracy, or a nonissue, there’s no way I would’ve dealt with all this BS for the last 2 years. I might’ve even been on your side.

Instead, I went looking and I found the exact opposite of something fishy or a nonissue. I found consistent answers, consistent research backed up by data and verifiable evidence. I found evidence that supports what these scientists have been telling us. And I’m not going to just sit by and watch selfish interests damage our public resources for the benefit of a few. I’m going to follow the facts and the evidence and do right by those resources.

So I'm a "small minority bully" for asking logical questions related to 1 dead deer? How many out of the 100k hunters you cite actually are "very vocal bullies"? How many just choose to stay out of it? How many don't even know the conversation is going on? I have so many questions that you seem to have answers to or just dismiss because it doesn't fit your narrative. You might be 100% right but your approach makes me believe 0%. "Believe me because....." and "You're an idiot because...." isn't enough for me.

 

[CatDaddy]

I say bullies because that’s all they are. They don’t have a good argument, so they resort to conspiracy theories, ad hominem attacks, and personal attacks. That’s why they block everyone who disagrees with them.

I used to think that about Lunker and his Covid "theories". Just because he didn't always post fact doesn't mean in the end he wasn't right. Ultimately, Covid doesn't even exist any more like it did when we lived in lock-down. You, Sir, feel like "lock-down" when in fact we should be nothing more than aware of the issue.