Habitat Hunting Access Summit

[svnmag]

I appreciate that observation, sometimes, on some issues, that is indeed the case.

In my opinion, Theodore Roosevelt captures that sentiment very well.

“Defenders of the short-sighted men who in their greed and selfishness will, if permitted, rob our country of half its charm by their reckless extermination of all useful and beautiful wild things sometimes seek to champion them by saying the ‘the game belongs to the people.’ So it does; and not merely to the people now alive, but to the unborn people. The ‘greatest good for the greatest number’ applies to the number within the womb of time, compared to which those now alive form but an insignificant fraction. Our duty to the whole, including the unborn generations, bids us restrain an unprincipled present-day minority from wasting the heritage of these unborn generations. The movement for the conservation of wild life and the larger movement for the conservation of all our natural resources are essentially democratic in spirit, purpose, and method.”

It's also twice missing an "s" which exhibits retardation.

 

[Trip McNeely]

Unknown. With single digit prevalence in a couple areas in the state, not a huge number.

That’s the point of the baiting bans and the best management practices in general. To help slow the growth in prevalence. To prevent as many man made hot spots as possible.

Here’s one of those “87 year old” deer.

Wildlife belongs to the public. This has been settled by federal case law and is known as the public trust doctrine. Wildlife is not private property. If you want to challenge that, bring it to the Supreme Court. People have tried….all have failed.


We can find infectious prions on man placed mineral licks, in feed, and on feeders.


show us. We’d all love to see it.

And you just proved my point. You can’t just say zero. The correct fucking answer is zero. Always a picture of a malnourished deer along with some fucked up statistics to gaslight away from the fact that ZERO deer have been confirmed to die FROM CWD in ND. Point 2. 90% of access belongs to the private landowners in this state. It doesn’t matter how many deer we have or dont have. When you piss of the majority of landowners, which the gnf and you are very thoroughly doing….. NO ONE will access these “public” wildlife. It’s doesn’t matter how “public” thw wildlife is and no court on earth will grant access to “public” wildlife on private property. Access is hard enough the way it is and organizations such as yours along with this absolutely idiotic CWD bullshit is making it even harder here. Not one landowner I know feels good about the gnf and the “best management” practices. You dolts completely miss the entire premise of this and in a state with 90% private land it’s the non landowning hunters who pay the price. Take your cwd shit to Colorado or Utah. But in a state where landowners rule and ZERO deer have died leave it the fuck alone. You are doing a lot more harm than good. Brock sometimes doing the right thing means doing nothing at all. This is that time.

 

[BrockW]

And you just proved my point. You can’t just say zero. The correct fucking answer is zero. Always a picture of a malnourished deer along with some fucked up statistics to gaslight away from the fact that ZERO deer have been confirmed to die FROM CWD in ND. Point 2. 90% of access belongs to the private landowners in this state. It doesn’t matter how many deer we have or dont have. When you piss of the majority of landowners, which the gnf and you are very thoroughly doing….. NO ONE will access these “public” wildlife. It’s doesn’t matter how “public” thw wildlife is and no court on earth will grant access to “public” wildlife on private property. Access is hard enough the way it is and organizations such as yours along with this absolutely idiotic CWD bullshit is making it even harder here. Not one landowner I know feels good about the gnf and the “best management” practices. You dolts completely miss the entire premise of this and in a state with 90% private land it’s the non landowning hunters who pay the price. Take your cwd shit to Colorado or Utah. But in a state where landowners rule and ZERO deer have died leave it the fuck alone. You are doing a lot more harm than good. Brock sometimes doing the right thing means doing nothing at all. This is that time.

The answer is not 0. 1 has been found dead. A couple more were found still alive but in clinical end stages of the disease where the landowner in one case and a hunter in the other were able to walk right up to the deer.

The one the hunter found and ended up shooting while the GF warden was on his way weighed 88 lbs.

I also know plenty of landowners who support the game and fish and the CWD management BMPs. Some even wrote in testimony to oppose 1151. 2 even gave verbal testimony. I think your echo chamber is in full effect.

Doing nothing is not a viable or wise option. And it is not the right thing to do.

 

[BrockW]

There is definitely something that killed that pictured deer above. "Their" science theory says a misfolded prion. It can incubate for a year or more.

Have had two friends that had CWD in a farmed deer operation and an elk farm. When the first animal showed signs, it became a domino. More animals became infected within a week or two.

It didn't need a year or two to incubate. It spread fast with a pneumonia-like symptom.

There are some true believers in the prion theory. I am not there.

That would be the fastest CWD incubation period on record.

The more likely scenario is that they all had CWD months before and just didn’t show symptoms until later stages in the disease. In fact, when they perform research on the disease and want to quickly infect animals, they orally inoculate animals using brain homogenate. It still takes several weeks to 3 months before they test positive.

Many of the positive deer end up with pneumonia because they cant control their saliva anymore and they have trouble swallowing. There’s video of CWD positive deer standing in peoples yards drooling uncontrollably and subsequently dying a short time later.

As far as prion theory it’s pretty well proven at this point. They’ve been able to create synthetic prions and infect animals that creates a symptomatic mammalian prion disease. They’ve also been able to isolate infectious prions from deer (yes they have pictures! **gasp** clutch your pearls!).

I thought it was kind of funny when Dusty brought up Koch’s postulate. I wonder if he’s aware that there is a whole host of diseases that don’t meet Koch’s postulate, which is the reason it’s not really a valid term anymore. Herpes, polio, hepatitis C, the virus that causes chicken pox and shingles, HIv/Aids…none of them meet Koch’s postulate.

 

[Trip McNeely]

The answer is not 0. 1 has been found dead. A couple more were found still alive but in clinical end stages of the disease where the landowner in one case and a hunter in the other were able to walk right up to the deer.

The one the hunter found and ended up shooting while the GF warden was on his way weighed 88 lbs.

I also know plenty of landowners who support the game and fish and the CWD management BMPs. Some even wrote in testimony to oppose 1151. 2 even gave verbal testimony. I think your echo chamber is in full effect.

Doing nothing is not a viable or wise option. And it is not the right thing to do.

No the answer is zero. One was found dead but couldn’t be confirmed. The title of this thread is “access summit” Im not going to argue with you anymore. IMO you are nothing more than a snake oil salesman and a professional begger. You wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for “free money” you con out of various governments via grants. If I had it my way 5013cs and all other lobby groups would be dissolved. And any form of lobbying would no longer exist. I can tell you this much, you are doing a lot more harm than good whatever you want to believe you drank enough of the koolaid. So instead of you trying to deflect and blame shift or turn it around on me like you and the rest of your democrat pals at BHA do just leave it alone.

 

[BrockW]

No the answer is zero. One was found dead but couldn’t be confirmed. The title of this thread is “access summit” Im not going to argue with you anymore. IMO you are nothing more than a snake oil salesman and a professional begger. You wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for “free money” you con out of various governments via grants. If I had it my way 5013cs and all other lobby groups would be dissolved. And any form of lobbying would no longer exist. I can tell you this much, you are doing a lot more harm than good whatever you want to believe you drank enough of the koolaid. So instead of you trying to deflect and blame shift or turn it around on me like you and the rest of your democrat pals at BHA do just leave it alone.

No the answer is not 0. I’ve went over that already. Please see above.

NDBHA or I have never applied for a single grant.

I’m also not a democrat. But I’m not a republican either. I’ve never voted for a democrat or republican president in my voting lifetime. I’m a proud independent.

I think we’ve done another one of these member surveys since 2019, but I don’t have it handy. Results were similar.

 

[fireone]

Keep your eyes on the topic here, there will be intentional distractors. This new group looks very interesting as posted by ndlongshot: https://www.ndwaa.com/ The question would be will they get the support of the other wildlife clubs and individual outdoors men? Because ND sportsmen have a dismal record of cooperating. Twenty years ago the "Hunter Pressure" bill to limit NR lost in the Republican legislature by 1 vote. And the same people were re-elected again. Naturally.

When I was grouse hunting this fall I saw 1 other hunter. People have just quit because access is unattainable. Pheasant hunter #s afield are the same. I saw 1 truck with 2 deer hunters go by my farm in the first 9 days of season. Go figure.

The whole concept missing from this discussion is that wildlife is physical public property, owned by law for the public at large, not for the private individual.

 

[Bacon]

Ya. Let’s let the experts manage the wildlife. Are those the same experts that managed 100,000 tags to 50,000 deer tags a year. Are those the experts that were handing out doe tags like Halloween candy when many of us said it would hurt the population. The same experts that managed zebra mussels into their own hatchery and then spread them around the state. Forgive me if I don’t really trust the experts.

 

[zoops]

Awesome idea and could be the start of something productive.

Fingers crossed it doesn’t get taken over by the usual CWD shouting match.

Welp, guess they couldn't help themselves with the CWD shouting match. Thanks guys.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Nice twist. Not surprised (and I bet no one else here is either) that you don’t support the NAM.

However, Mr. Geist was actually sharing the core concept of the “Roosevelt Doctrine”. This was an idea of Theodore Roosevelt, when he founded the Boone and Crockett club. But Aldo Leupold was the one who originally coined the label. TR, of course, was a foundational advocate for science based management of natural resources and it is from him, that the crucially important tenant was formed.

Wildlife is to be “Managed by science - The best science available will be used as a base for informed decision making in wildlife management.”

https://www.boone-crockett.org/north-american-model-wildlife-conservation

I support the Public Trust Doctrine.

Thank you very much for posting the link to boone-crocket.org

www.boone-crockett.org/north-american-model-wildlife-conservation

The column to the left tells a story. I have shown the pie chart where conservation and Inflation Reduction Act money are almost surpassing farm programs. Bidens 30x30 plan wants thirty percent of lands owned by the government or under easement by 2030. And then CWD.

These programs have one common denominator. They need huge sums of other people's money. That is where the controlled opposition non-profit NGO's come in. They are funded to push the narrative all this spending is critical.

We are from the government, and we are here to help. Theodore Roosevelt would recognize the irony today.

Leadership Links​

• Trailblazers in Conservation and Industry Sponsors
• The Farm Bill
• Forest Health
• Hunt Fish 30x30
• B&C Member Spotlights
• American Wildlife Conservation Partners
• Chronic Wasting Disease
• North American Model of Wildlife Conservation
• Position Statements
• Join Boone and Crockett Club
• Donate to B&C

 

[BrockW]

Ya. Let’s let the experts manage the wildlife. Are those the same experts that managed 100,000 tags to 50,000 deer tags a year. Are those the experts that were handing out doe tags like Halloween candy when many of us said it would hurt the population. The same experts that managed zebra mussels into their own hatchery and then spread them around the state. Forgive me if I don’t really trust the experts.

I would agree they were a bit slow to lower tags. But I think it’s bit naive, or perhaps just lazy and cynical, to just point fingers at the GF and assign blame.

Since that time period, we’ve lost 3 million acres of CRP, a huge number of wetland acres, miles of tree rows, and many acres of native pasture. All that with 4 epic winters mixed in, 3 of which came back to back to back at the same we were losing CRP. Plus maybe the largest EHD outbreak ND has ever had. Not to mention that when they were giving out 100k tags they were under a tremendous amount of pressure from landowners about too many deer.

No matter what, they can’t win. When deer numbers were great, no one thought to appreciate them, yet somehow when they’re down, they get all the blame. Given the variables I mentioned above, it’s just illogical for that to be the case.

As far as zebra mussels, as far as I know, they’re pretty sure they came in through a dock that was transported from MN. They don’t have the regulatory authority to require dock inspections. So what are they supposed to do? If they require those to be inspected without that authority, people cry government overreach. If they operate within their jurisdictional authority and don’t inspect them, then somehow it’s their fault.

No matter what, there’s a subset of folks who just want to point fingers at the GF without any consideration as to context or variables. Generally, it’s the same subset of guys.

 

[fireone]

And not only landowners pressing NDGF about too many deer but insurance companies also. Thousands of deer vehicle collisions and even some human deaths.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Conservation Reserve Program payments in North Dakota totaled $2.7 billion from 1995-2023.​

 

[BrockW]

Conservation Reserve Program payments in North Dakota totaled $2.7 billion from 1995-2023.​

So, we could take funding from one of these countries for 1 year and fund CRP for 20-30 years?

 

[Bacon]

So farmers shouldn’t take govt payments unless it benefits the wildlife. Then it’s fine to waste taxpayer money. I hate to break it to you, but crp that is completely full of snow in a bad winter isn’t saving any deer. I guess the experts forgot that we have bad winters in North Dakota. The wetland draining is severely overhyped. Most land has easements and others fall under swampbuster. There might be some drainage in the east but other than that it’s not happening. Tree rows in fields suck. The crop doesn’t grow right beside cause it’s shaded. The branches are always falling into the field. And most tree rows that are being removed are dead or dying. I do more than average to help wildlife but I’m not gonna tell another farmer what they should do.

 

[Kurtr]

So, we could take funding from one of these countries for 1 year and fund CRP for 20-30 years?

You’re forgetting the 2.9 billion we have gave the taliban since it took Afghanistan back. Crp is a lot cooler than terrorists

 

[Obi-Wan]

I would agree they were a bit slow to lower tags. But I think it’s bit naive, or perhaps just lazy and cynical, to just point fingers at the GF and assign blame.

Since that time period, we’ve lost 3 million acres of CRP, a huge number of wetland acres, miles of tree rows, and many acres of native pasture. All that with 4 epic winters mixed in, 3 of which came back to back to back at the same we were losing CRP. Plus maybe the largest EHD outbreak ND has ever had. Not to mention that when they were giving out 100k tags they were under a tremendous amount of pressure from landowners about too many deer.

No matter what, they can’t win. When deer numbers were great, no one thought to appreciate them, yet somehow when they’re down, they get all the blame. Given the variables I mentioned above, it’s just illogical for that to be the case.

As far as zebra mussels, as far as I know, they’re pretty sure they came in through a dock that was transported from MN. They don’t have the regulatory authority to require dock inspections. So what are they supposed to do? If they require those to be inspected without that authority, people cry government overreach. If they operate within their jurisdictional authority and don’t inspect them, then somehow it’s their fault.

No matter what, there’s a subset of folks who just want to point fingers at the GF without any consideration as to context or variables. Generally, it’s the same subset of guys.

They didn’t learn their lesson. They still have depredation tags for a herd that is a small fraction what it use to be before the EHD die off just south of Bismarck in the briardale area.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

So, we could take funding from one of these countries for 1 year and fund CRP for 20-30 years?

You are not going to divert any money away from the military industrial complex. They have more non-governmental non-profit lobbyists than the wildlife industry has non-governmental non-profits.

 

[BrockW]

So farmers shouldn’t take govt payments unless it benefits the wildlife. Then it’s fine to waste taxpayer money. I hate to break it to you, but crp that is completely full of snow in a bad winter isn’t saving any deer. I guess the experts forgot that we have bad winters in North Dakota. The wetland draining is severely overhyped. Most land has easements and others fall under swampbuster. There might be some drainage in the east but other than that it’s not happening. Tree rows in fields suck. The crop doesn’t grow right beside cause it’s shaded. The branches are always falling into the field. And most tree rows that are being removed are dead or dying. I do more than average to help wildlife but I’m not gonna tell another farmer what they should do.

CRP is preferred for fawning and I believe gps data has shown it increases fawning survival as well.

As far as wetlands, they provide great thermal cover. I believe North Dakota hovered around 5 million acres of wetlands at one point…I think we’re less than half that now.

I can see tree rows not always being convenient, but no denying they provide habitat.

 

[BrockW]

They didn’t learn their lesson. They still have depredation tags for a herd that is a small fraction what it use to be before the EHD die off just south of Bismarck in the briardale area.

Isn’t that driven by or on request of the city of Bismarck?