Mountain Lion Meeting in Fargo tonight, who's going?

[deleted_account]

 

[johnr]

 

[Coyote Hunter]

Coyote Hunter which meeting did you attend? Ms. Tucker said that hunting is what controls the population of lions. More specifically hound hunting which is very efficient has the most control over it. It usually takes 2 or 3 days after the first snowfall to fill the hound quota. When they do reduce the quota for hound hunters (which is going to be the first place they will) The season will be over the same day of the snowfall. They probably will reduce the quota for the early season also but with the lack of deer hunters the early quota hasn't been filled since 2011.
Most people were happy with the ecosystem in western ND before the lions came. Now almost nobody is. In the area that I hunt the whitetail have rebounded to almost pre 2011 numbers. The mule deer numbers have not rebounded.
If you want to shoot a lion you better buddy up with somebody that has dogs because the chances of you just bumping into a lion are very slim.
I don't want mule deer to become one of our novelty species just because a few people hope to bump into a lion someday.

Badland Mule,

I attended the Bismarck meeting.

I think your statement in red should read... Most people were happy with the ecosystem in western ND before the severe winters of 2009-2011. Now almost nobody is.

What approximate area are you seeing the whitetail numbers rebounding?

 

[badland mule]

Badland Mule,

I attended the Bismarck meeting.

I think your statement in red should read... Most people were happy with the ecosystem in western ND before the severe winters of 2009-2011. Now almost nobody is.

What approximate area are you seeing the whitetail numbers rebounding?

So it's just a coincidence that the main food source for lions has not rebounded like whitetails have? The area where I have witnessed the recovery of whitetails is right in the center of the main lion breeding area according to Ms Tuckers map. How much time do you spend in the badlands?

 

[KDM]

Coyote Hunter, winter kill has NOTHING to do with lion populations affecting the deer herd. Each lion kills 52 deer annually. They will kill 52 deer annually whether the winter was bad or not. The zone 1 quota has gone from 5 lions in the 05-06 season to 21 in the 14-15 season. The quota was INCREASED to 21 after your precious "bad winters of 09-11. Let me say that again..... THE NDGF INCREASED THE LION QUOTA AFTER THE WINTERS OF 09-11!!!! That doesn't sound like a declining population. If you think the 1092 deer killed by those 21 lions has no affect on the deer population in western ND you are living in a dream world. DO THE MATH!!! If half of that 1092 were does, then you add 50% to the loss due to lion predation for the lost fawns. These are the lions we can verify. I am very confident that there are way more lions out there than the 21 that the quota allowed to be taken. So the annual deer kill by lions IS MUCH HIGHER. Give it a rest about the winter being the ONLY substantial factor to dramatically reduce deer numbers. I know better and so do most of the ND sportsmen. Lions are NOT a good thing for ND and thus far you have not shown me anything that offsets the 52 deer killed per lion per year (1092 last year) and the corresponding licence, funding, and opportunity losses these lions cause.

 

[sweeney]

Weather definitely had an impact on the numbers no doubt. The thing is we can't control the weather but we can control the lion numbers, we don't need a sustainable population of cats,wolves, or bears. There is a reason they were mostly eradicated from the western part of ND, cattle was worth more than fur. If coyotes weren't so hard to get rid of I'm sure they probably would have been eradicated in the early to mid 1900's to. Like said above putting 20 of them on a kill a week which I don't necessarily believe is true in ND, is 1000 deer a year. To me that is a bit high but still even at 800 deer, that's more than the number of tags given out in those units. Ecosystems are neat until real life comes into them.

 

[SupressYourself]

KDM +1
I like the idea of balanced ecosystem, and having native species around.
However, it doesn't make sense in ND as far as economics and hunter opportunities are concerned.
If lions were endangered, it might be a different discussion, but they're not.
Maybe when they catch and collar these lions, they could train them to eat coyotes instead of deer...

 

[KDM]

If lions were endangered I'd be on the other side of the fence, BUT THEIR NOT!!!!! This whole thing stinks to high heaven of emotional attachment and political pandering to a "Pet Specie" regardless of cost to anyone or anything. Numbers DON'T lie. Last year the NDGF gave out 43275 deer tags. If you take the 1092 deer taken by the lions we can verify and compare that to the tag numbers, JUST the lions we can verify took out 2.5% of the deer tags. If you add the 50% for fawn loss the lions took out almost 4% of the total deer tags given out last year. I believe the true picture is much worse.

 

[Enslow]

They want to stop the houndsmen from getting the cats. Plain and simple. I also laugh at hearing people speak of a balanced ecosystem in ND when this state was literally tore up in the last 8 years.

 

[dean nelson]

So it's just a coincidence that the main food source for lions has not rebounded like whitetails have? The area where I have witnessed the recovery of whitetails is right in the center of the main lion breeding area according to Ms Tuckers map. How much time do you spend in the badlands?

So it's mountain lions that are keeping the deer down in 2E.....hell pretty much every unit east of the Missouri River?

 

[Lycanthrope]

Lions suck, we all need to contact the G&F and suggest they send them elsewhere.

 

[Coyote Hunter]

Coyote Hunter, winter kill has NOTHING to do with lion populations affecting the deer herd. Each lion kills 52 deer annually. They will kill 52 deer annually whether the winter was bad or not. The zone 1 quota has gone from 5 lions in the 05-06 season to 21 in the 14-15 season. The quota was INCREASED to 21 after your precious "bad winters of 09-11. Let me say that again..... THE NDGF INCREASED THE LION QUOTA AFTER THE WINTERS OF 09-11!!!! That doesn't sound like a declining population. If you think the 1092 deer killed by those 21 lions has no affect on the deer population in western ND you are living in a dream world. DO THE MATH!!! If half of that 1092 were does, then you add 50% to the loss due to lion predation for the lost fawns. These are the lions we can verify. I am very confident that there are way more lions out there than the 21 that the quota allowed to be taken. So the annual deer kill by lions IS MUCH HIGHER. Give it a rest about the winter being the ONLY substantial factor to dramatically reduce deer numbers. I know better and so do most of the ND sportsmen. Lions are NOT a good thing for ND and thus far you have not shown me anything that offsets the 52 deer killed per lion per year (1092 last year) and the corresponding licence, funding, and opportunity losses these lions cause.

KDM you are 100% correct :::... the mountain lions are the MAIN reason the deer population plummeted. I really thought you were smarter than that. I never said that the lions don't have an effect on the deer population. They certainly do... but both populations can co-exist if the cats are kept in check.

Apparently, in your mind the REASON for the statewide reduction of 149,000 deer tags in 2008 to the record low of 43,000 deer tags in 2015 is entirely due to MOUNTAIN LIONS... I guess my "precious winters of 09-11" had nothing to do with. Sit back and listen to what you are saying...

I also was unaware that the lions are running the entire state decimating the deer herd... Winter kill had almost everything to do with the decimated deer herds STATEWIDE. It didn't just happen in the badlands, deer numbers are down dramatically STATEWIDE. Guys, wake up... if the deer population was rebounding all over (except in the badlands) we wouldn't be at the record low for deer tags. I have one guy telling me the whitetail population is almost completely recovered in his area (prime lion area), but we are to believe that when the rest of the state still has no deer. Mountain lions kill whitetails also, so it isn't like they are immune to lions...


Remember KDM...
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

 

[KDM]

So it's mountain lions that are keeping the deer down in 2E.....hell pretty much every unit east of the Missouri River?

I think you are being sarcastic, but it's really tough to tell as nobody seems to know how many lions there are in ND, but they sure as shootin' don't help INCREASE the deer populations. If you have 1 resident lion, which seems to be what the NDGF wants to see, that lion will take over 7% (52) of the available 700 2015 rifle deer tags allocated to 2E each year. If you add the 50% for fawn losses, assuming half of the deer taken are does, it increases to over 11%. Having 70 more chances to get a rifle tag might interest a few folks instead of having 1 lion in the area. It might surprise people to run the numbers in their units. For me in 2G they gave out 300 tags total in 2015. Having 1 resident lion would take out over 17% and 26% of the available deer tags annually. NOT a pretty picture to think about.

 

[Kurtr]

In the black hills lions are the number one factor on if a calve survives. The gfp in both states has little to no clue on what these lions do they need to start getting more info aggressively manage them.

https://gfp.sd.gov/wildlife/management/research-projects/docs/7544.pdf

 

[badland mule]

So it's mountain lions that are keeping the deer down in 2E.....hell pretty much every unit east of the Missouri River?

Definitely not. I never said that and have no idea how you got that out of my statements. I have no idea what the deer situation is like outside the area I hunt. It was stated at the meetings by Ms. Tucker that mule deer make up 70% of lions diet and whitetail make up something like 8%. Obviously cats prefer mule deer over whitetail. My guess is because mule deer are as dumb as shit and are easier for cats to kill. I might be convinced that cats had less of an impact on deer if mule deer numbers had made a comeback like the whitetail did in the area I hunt.

 

[Bowhunter_24]

A few things:

When was the last time you were able to shoot antlerless muledeer in the badlands? It's been a long time.

Mule deer and whitetails are not created equal and don't live in the same type of terrain or need the same food to survive.

Whitetail populations plummeted due to bad winters and over harvest. Oh and they still shoot does.

I didnt expand on those things but I think u get the point.

#catseatmuledeer

 

[dean nelson]

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I think you are being sarcastic, but it's really tough to tell as nobody seems to know how many lions there are in ND, but they sure as shootin' don't help INCREASE the deer populations. If you have 1 resident lion, which seems to be what the NDGF wants to see, that lion will take over 7% (52) of the available 700 2015 rifle deer tags allocated to 2E each year. If you add the 50% for fawn losses, assuming half of the deer taken are does, it increases to over 11%. Having 70 more chances to get a rifle tag might interest a few folks instead of having 1 lion in the area. It might surprise people to run the numbers in their units. For me in 2G they gave out 300 tags total in 2015. Having 1 resident lion would take out over 17% and 26% of the available deer tags annually. NOT a pretty picture to think about.

Yes it was vary tongue in cheek. Yeah the lions have an impact and I agree with what you say. But so many people try to simplify things down to a single cause for the effect and it just doesn't work that way. Allot of people seem to blame it all on the lions ignoring all the other causes such as severe winters oilfield activity and other factors. The lions no doubt make a dent in the population but how many of the deer they take down were perfectly healthy vs deer with injuries old age or other factors. There is no way to quantify these numbers but it will definitely be a percentage of the full numbers. Over all I like having them around its just adds to the feel of the wild when your out hitting the hills. That said I don't want to try to increase the population anymore then it was few years ago either.

- - - Updated - - -

Definitely not. I never said that and have no idea how you got that out of my statements. I have no idea what the deer situation is like outside the area I hunt. It was stated at the meetings by Ms. Tucker that mule deer make up 70% of lions diet and whitetail make up something like 8%. Obviously cats prefer mule deer over whitetail. My guess is because mule deer are as dumb as shit and are easier for cats to kill. I might be convinced that cats had less of an impact on deer if mule deer numbers had made a comeback like the whitetail did in the area I hunt.

There mule deer take may be more about hunting style as well. Lions like to use steep terrain to help them well they're stalking their prey.

 

[Coyote Hunter]

I think you are being sarcastic, but it's really tough to tell as nobody seems to know how many lions there are in ND, but they sure as shootin' don't help INCREASE the deer populations. If you have 1 resident lion, which seems to be what the NDGF wants to see, that lion will take over 7% (52) of the available 700 2015 rifle deer tags allocated to 2E each year. If you add the 50% for fawn losses, assuming half of the deer taken are does, it increases to over 11%. Having 70 more chances to get a rifle tag might interest a few folks instead of having 1 lion in the area. It might surprise people to run the numbers in their units. For me in 2G they gave out 300 tags total in 2015. Having 1 resident lion would take out over 17% and 26% of the available deer tags annually. NOT a pretty picture to think about.

KDM... you are fun.

The NDGF is not managing a population outside the core area... there is no quota in 2E for lions. So, I don't know how you are assuming the NDGF wants 1 resident lion in this area. That is news to me.

You must have been the mathematician for Al Gore's global warming calculations... you are seriously counting a fawn loss as an extra death from a hypothetical doe killed because she would have had a fawn the following year? So, now it counts as 2 kills. So, every rifle and archery hunter that shoots a doe is taking an extra deer over their limit because they are technically killing 2 deer because that doe would have had a fawn the following year. Hell, lets stretch that out over 5 years... one dead doe would have resulted in 32 deer 5 years later. My god, how can we sustain a population when 1 cat is killing 32 deer if it kills of one doe. LISTEN TO YOURSELF...

Remember KDM...
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

 

[KDM]

KDM you are 100% correct :::... the mountain lions are the MAIN reason the deer population plummeted. I really thought you were smarter than that. I never said that the lions don't have an effect on the deer population. They certainly do... but both populations can co-exist if the cats are kept in check.

Apparently, in your mind the REASON for the statewide reduction of 149,000 deer tags in 2008 to the record low of 43,000 deer tags in 2015 is entirely due to MOUNTAIN LIONS... I guess my "precious winters of 09-11" had nothing to do with. Sit back and listen to what you are saying...

I also was unaware that the lions are running the entire state decimating the deer herd... Winter kill had almost everything to do with the decimated deer herds STATEWIDE. It didn't just happen in the badlands, deer numbers are down dramatically STATEWIDE. Guys, wake up... if the deer population was rebounding all over (except in the badlands) we wouldn't be at the record low for deer tags. I have one guy telling me the whitetail population is almost completely recovered in his area (prime lion area), but we are to believe that when the rest of the state still has no deer. Mountain lions kill whitetails also, so it isn't like they are immune to lions...


Remember KDM...
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Remember this:

Better to READ my post and THINK about it then to scan it frivolously before showing your true self in a post Coyote Hunter!!!!

I NEVER ONCE said lions were the main reason deer numbers plummeted in the badlands or any other part of the state. My whole post was about how lions, regardless of winter, vehicle collisions, Disease, or any other population control factor WILL further reduce deer populations wherever the two species interact. As far as deer numbers being low across the state, NONE of that makes any difference. Lions, where they are found in ND, have a drastic and dramatic affect on the deer herd there as stated by the NDGF themselves with each lion killing 52 deer annually. Try to keep on target here. You state deer numbers are down statewide. How do YOU know?? The NDGF hasn't flown an aerial survey for white tails in many years, to include this one. Try to do some research before spewing statements that have no backing. I can back up everything I've said with information and reports from the NDGF themselves and have posted this information before. If you can show me how having 1 lion in ND will benefit ND sportsmen more than it will cost them, I'd like to hear it. I deal in numbers and facts, not emotion and politics. I don't care that the lions and deer can coexist. I've shown, on paper, what the costs are to ND sportsmen by having lions. Your turn to show me the benefits to ND sportsmen by having lions.

 

[Enslow]

KDM knows his shit coyote hunter... Maybe slow down and listen to him and learn something. Haha or act like nutsakangler.