No Trespass Prognostication

[zoops]

My opinions in red

1. I've asked this before but forget the answer: Other states have no-trespass laws but people post most everything regardless. Why is this? Is it because in western MN people visiting from ND trespass if there are no signs because they are used to that system "at home"? So it seems like nobody is going to be freed from the task/expense of posting their land - at least not for a generation. True or false? MN is the only other state I have experience with but I don't remember seeing a lot of posted signs there. I believe their law reads that "agricultural" land requires permission regardless if it's posted, so I always took that to mean that if a woodlot or slough could be accessed without crossing ag land you could if it's not posted.

2. Will there suddenly be much more pressure on PLOTS, game management, state, etc.? Or will permission calls just increase a lot and people will continue to hunt unposted land, but after having obtained permission. Probably yes on all of the above.

3. I understand it's not that easy/common for enforcement of no trespass. And law enforcement, not wardens, handle this. Won't enforcement calls "go through the roof" and create an overwhelmed law enforcement situation? I can't imagine the uptick each season opener. Guess I don't envision that. The majority of people follow the laws even if they don't like them. I could see the first season or two being an adjustment period though.

4. Some people were born to cheat. Right now there's a lot of land unposted so they're "satisfied with what they have to hunt", with an occasional cheat here/there if they see game while driving around. If suddenly everything is posted, will this create more people that have a chip on their shoulder about landowners and develop an "oh well, I'll just hunt wherever" attitude. True or false? Probably not any more than there already are.

5. What's the current trespass penalty? - and is it sufficient to act as a deterrent? Not sure, would be curious to know.

6. Would a no trespass law prevent jackholes from tearing down signs and offering up the "I didn't see the poster" or "I didn't see a signature" type excuses? That would be a pro I guess. No more excuses for cheating. Probably the biggest pro for that camp other than having to spend time posting land.

7. Would a tax-payer supported program involving no-cost installation of "walk-in" posting for landowners who don't care maybe take the sting out of things for the non-landowners? That's basically what PLOTS is, albeit not funded by taxes.

8. Would poaching increase? Probably, as I would consider taking game on land you don't have permission to hunt poaching. Locals would still know the areas where landowners don't care or aren't around.

These are just a few things I wonder about. In general, it seems like mostly a losing situation for both landowners and non landowners, but maybe it'll just "be different" but will all work itself out in the end?

One thing I can't figure out is what is so broken now that landowners with power/influence need to change it? If they have land, then the majority of them also have the $ to post and the influence to get law enforcement to prosecute. What are landowners actually gaining from such a law? If it's simply freedom from the expense/hassle of posting that seems minor. Is it freedom from the "excuse" guys who claim it wasn't posted properly? What's genuinely driving this movement? I wish I had a better appreciation for the landowner perspective. I'd agree that the current system doesn't seem broken. I'm not a landowner but I know a few and ask random ones permission throughout the fall and I've never had one complain about the current system. Certainly you'll always be able to find stories of landowners with trespassing/poaching/vandalism/theft problems but I really have my doubts that a change to this law would fix that much. @Davey Crockett aren't there already laws against stealing and dumping garbage? I can empathize but how's a no trespassing law going to fix that?

Couple other points
- I think license sales would go down but not dramatically. Loss of habitat is a bigger factor in that IMO. I've hunted in many areas of the state and have never found a lot of unposted land; I've hunted around 30 days this fall and can think of one unposted spot that I've hunted. Almost all the rest has been public; have only hunted a couple days on posted stuff. Point being I would hate to see the ability to hunt unposted land go away but it wouldn't take away much land as I just don't see much unposted land that's worth hunting.
- As has been mentioned, it's hard to get a hold of landowners. It's probably the biggest reason I don't ask to hunt more posted stuff. I got permission to hunt some sloughs for pheasants a couple weeks ago but it was an absentee owner who lived in town 50 miles from the land. I didn't know where he lived so I asked another farmer in the area (took time) and it took a few phone calls to get a hold of the guy. I think many people don't answer unfamiliar phone numbers these days and I've never had much luck leaving landowners a voicemail. I try to visit them in person to ask but that's often just not feasible as things are so spread out these days as has been mentioned. Big reason I don't duck hunt much anymore; tracking down landowners. It would be a shame to have to go through all that to hunt stuff that the landowner would rather you just hunt without bothering them.
- I'd be more supportive of a no driving on private land without permission law.

 

[eyexer]

not answering phone calls is a huge problem now. getting multiple calls from local numbers that are scam calls is the norm now.

 

[Davey Crockett]

not answering phone calls is a huge problem now. getting multiple calls from local numbers that are scam calls is the norm now.

The bigger scam than scammers calling is the federally funded do not call list, I have registered my numbers many times and the 701 scammers still keep trying to scam.

- - - Updated - - -

If they are not able to do their job trump should fire them.

 

[JayKay]

So maybe there just needs to be a better enforcement and stiffer penalties for current laws?

Regarding MORE laws, I think we ought to be able to agree that if something is already illegal, and the statutes are ignored, more laws won't help.

I'm all for stiffer penalties. I don't think that throwing people in jail is going to do much good. Seems like it never happens anyhow. But increase the fine 10X, and people may think twice.

My dad was never a hunter, so neither was (am) I, but I grew up fishing, and the legend and lore of Game Wardens being able to confiscate vehicles, boats, guns, gear, sure scared me as a kid. My dad and I were always rule-followers (for the most part) and the fear of those penalties kept us on the straight and narrow.

 

[Davey Crockett]

Not necessarily more laws but better laws without loopholes so LEOs can enforce them.

 

[eyexer]

The bigger scam than scammers calling is the federally funded do not call list, I have registered my numbers many times and the 701 scammers still keep trying to scam.

- - - Updated - - -

If they are not able to do their job trump should fire them.

technology ruled the do not call list completely ineffective

 

[Lungdeflator]

As a guy who relies on public and non posted land, I would be super bummed about a new trespass law. With that said, we do try to contact land owners as much as possible, especially for deer hunting. We do not hunt land if it has any kind of posted sign on it, 10 year faded thing or brand new custom metal sign. Finding the loopholes like improper signage isn't a good way to go about things. I like the law as it is, but I could see stiffer fines/penalties being an upgrade so it is not ruined and changed.

We have ran into a TON of great and appreciative land owners over the years, even if the answer is no, they are thankful that we stopped and asked. Only a few negative ones really stand out, but those are the guys and lands you just stay away from and that's that.

We have found if you're in an area and start talking with land owners, you will find some good guys, and those guys are usually liked by other good guys in the area and they usually know everybody else that is a good guy. Most good guys that let you hunt will give you names and numbers of other guys that let people hunt as well. Doesn't take much for the wrong idiot to mess things up for everybody though.

 

[FishSticks]

We hunt unposted private land almost exclusively on the east side of the state for birds. There are some plots and wpa's we walk but those get hit so hard that most of the season it isn't productive. There are 3 posted spots i have called on this year and have had a very very hard time getting through; 1 of the 3 I was able to reach and that was through mutual friends on facebook - his number wasn't listed and he had people hunting that coming weekend already. Previous years we had some luck with landowners but its usually not answering calls and 1/2 the time they aren't home when we stop by. Imagine the difficulty if you had to call every landowner. A no trespass law would greatly hinder what i love to do the most.

 

[Lycanthrope]

Would a no trespassing law apply in the city as well as in the country ? For some of us it's not necessarily as much about hunting on your property as it keeping people from stealing stuff off while on your property, or dumping off old appliances in random areas. I could cry when I think about some of the items that have disappeared over the years. Posted signs don't work, I'm all for no a trespassing law year around.

If posted signs dont work, Id bet not having posted signs wont work either...

 

[PrairieGhost]

I can only see negative for everyone but outfitters. For myself it would end coyote hunting. If I have two new knees next year maybe I would get some hunting in. The big problem is North Dakota has the lowest amount of public land. I'm always jealous of states like Wyoming and Montana. When we have gone to Arizona in the winter you canvroam the desert like a free man.

 

[Bacon]

From my experience, you won’t stop the ass hats that already don’t care whether it is posted or not. I post my land. I let people hunt when they ask for the most part. It’s a lot of work to post land but I don’t think I want where everything is automatically posted. If you don’t want hunters then post it. If your too lazy to do that then I don’t know what to say.

 

[KDM]

IF this stupidity goes through, all I see is BAD things for hunting. If the no trespass stupidity AND the bait ban absurdity both go through, I see BAD things (squared) for hunting. My predictions are as follows: Young hunter recruitment will be negatively affected as the difficulty of both access to land and the probability of success decreases. I suspect hunter numbers as a whole will also probably go down for the same reasons. PLOTS land will be boot stomped into oblivion due to increased usage which could quite possibly result in a reduction in PLOTS participation by landowners. WPA and other public lands will probably see an increase in usage which for you Mulie lovers means more hunters going to the only large areas of public land available in ND to hunt deer ie. "The Badlands". Revenue from sporting good sales as well as licences will probably drop as not only residents give up hunting, but non-residents will go elsewhere to hunt. Increased burdens on law enforcement during the hunting season are an almost certainty which, in turn, will aggravate both landowners and sportsmen alike. Hunting, as a deer management tool, could lose it's effectiveness causing deer herd numbers to exceed the habitat possibly causing increases in deer depredation complaints. Which brings up another point. Normally, deer depredation calls are fixed by allowing hunters onto the land. Will landowners be required to post their land open to hunting and how will hunters find out about open land? Early goose season will probably be a complete BUST as getting onto the fields where transient geese are feeding will be much more difficult, which completely nullifies the entire reason the season was implemented, which was to reduce goose depredation on soybeans and other crops. The list can go on, but that should suffice for now. Enjoy!

 

[eyexer]

Great points KDM. Several I hadn’t thought of. Especially the potential for much higher numbers bow hunting the bad lands

 

[KDM]

Great points KDM. Several I hadn’t thought of. Especially the potential for much higher numbers bow hunting the bad lands

Not just bow hunters eyexer. I suspect getting a rifle tag for a mulie buck will go from 8 years to 16. Think about it.......If I'm a deer hunter and have difficulty getting onto land to deer hunt, I might as well go for the gold and apply for a mulie buck tag.

 

[Migrator Man]

Not just bow hunters eyexer. I suspect getting a rifle tag for a mulie buck will go from 8 years to 16. Think about it.......If I'm a deer hunter and have difficulty getting onto land to deer hunt, I might as well go for the gold and apply for a mulie buck tag.

That’s how it works in WY. The hardest to draw units are the ones with a ton of accessible public lands. If a guy can’t get on private land then they will have to apply for the badland tags.

 

[Davey Crockett]

Lots of good input that I agree with , I'm all for open hunting unless posted and not wanting to take away opportunities. I think I'm barking up a different tree, Looking at the laws that are already in place and different options for signage. HELP!

 

[eyexer]

Yea 8 will turn to 16 or once in a lifetime lol

 

[PrairieGhost]

If posted signs dont work, Id bet not having posted signs wont work either...

It may in fact get worse. "This is Tom's land, I thought it was Dicks" "He told us we could hunt, then called the warden". I think with the small amount of public land in North Dakota this would be a huge head ache for landowners, at least until the current generation of hunters die off and most are not replaced.

 

[TFX 186]

Davey,
Sounds like the same problem they are having at the southern border. BUILD A WALL!

Fish On!

 

[Zogman]

This hunter/landowner has a good point! Long but a good read.


https://www.grandforksherald.com/op...hanilec-proposal-would-change-hunting-forever