3 Class Bball system in ND?

[MicLee]

Three-class basketball in North Dakota getting closer to a reality​

The NDHSAA will receive the three-class proposal early in November for potential approval in the 2023-24 season.​

Michael Vosburg/The Forum
By Dom Izzo

https://www.inforum.com/policies-and-standards
FARGO - North Dakota high school basketball is inching closer to a major facelift.
The focus group that proposed going to a three-class system for basketball announced Wednesday that they have received more than 60% percent of approval from member schools, which is above the threshold needed to take the proposal to the North Dakota High School Activities Association.

"I don't want to get the cart before the horse. This is step one of two. We are going to continue to reach out to member schools and hopefully get to 82 schools, which would be 65%," said Valley City Schools superintendent Josh Johnson, who has served as spokesperson for the focus group.

Class B schools that either supported or did not on three classes for basketball in North Dakota. (Special to WDAY Sports)

Seventy seven schools have sent in approval letters for the three-class system. With co-ops counted, the number reaches 105.

No private schools have sent in letters of support, citing a "multiplier" for school enrollment that doubles those particular schools' enrollment as the reason not to sign off.

"Everyone is in agreement that three classes are the way to go." Johnson added. "It was never about public vs. private schools. The reality is that some schools will be opposed to it and the private schools are opposed."

The next step for the group is to present the three-class proposal and support letters to the North Dakota High School Activities Association. The group intends to do that early next week with a hope that the executive board of the NDHSAA will sign off on the plan for the 2023-24 season.

Matt Fetsch, executive director of the NDHSAA, said the next scheduled board meeting is slated for Dec. 1.
The new classes would be identified as Class AA, A and B. Enrollment sizes would be defined as 576 students or more in AA, 180-575 in Class A and under 180 in Class B.

This would also create two more state tournaments in likely two different cities, as well, adding more logistical challenges to try and implement for the '23-24 school year.

The focus group formed a website for the member schools to look at in August and have been seeking feedback for the proposal since then.

Under this proposal, the last two Class B champions in both girls and boys basketball would move up to the Class A division (Grafton, Kindred and Four Winds-Minnewaukan).


"It's been 59 years since Class C basketball was dissolved in North Dakota. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. If we're not going to change the way we're doing things we can't expect participation numbers to increase or the number of teams we have."

https://www.inforum.com/sports/prep...l-in-north-dakota-getting-closer-to-a-reality

 

[MicLee]

any opinions on this? Seems like a fairly obvious thing to move forward with but maybe I'm missing something.

 

[remm]

Shoulda probably happened a few years ago already; problem has always been where are the lines drawn? I think it looks like they've put quite a bit of thought into it and tried to make it as competitive as possible. Impossible to please everyone.

This is only the first phase, still has to pass a few other votes to be approved

 

[Rowdie]

IMO...3 classes is NOT needed in ND. BUT what should happen is move ALL PRIVATE Schools up to A!! The ones located in A school districts!!!

 

[MicLee]

IMO...3 classes is NOT needed in ND. BUT what should happen is move ALL PRIVATE Schools up to A!! The ones located in A school districts!!!

That would be a step in the right direction, agreed, but I think it falls short a bit.
What about the recruitment of reservation schools?

 

[Allen]

IMO...3 classes is NOT needed in ND. BUT what should happen is move ALL PRIVATE Schools up to A!! The ones located in A school districts!!!

I guess I don't get the logic of private schools all needing to be Class A. For example, the Dakota Adventist Academy up north of Bismarck lists 38 students enrolled in grades 9-12. Aren't the different classes intended to generally match up schools of relatively similar sizes?

 

[wjschmaltz]

First I've seen this. The nostalgia of me wants it to stay the way it was. But looking at the list of teams, it's far from the way it was. My county had 4 teams when I played about 20 years ago. Down from 7 teams when my parents played, and according to that list it's down to two now and probably not long until it's one. When I played our district had 14 teams and region had almost 30. Had to be the best of 30 teams to make the dance. I think the region now has like 11 teams. Makes sense to form a co-op, who wants to lose every game by 30? A 3 class system means less co-ops and less time for kids being bussed around every night = more time with family. I was lucky enough to play in 3 class B state tournaments. My graduating class was 24 people and our team did not have a co-op at the time. We ran through a gauntlet playing schools with 6x the enrollment we did but did alright. I love giving my BIL shit that they could never beat us even though they had 4x the enrollment we did!

I used to always argue with my private school friends that even with enrollment, it's not apples to apples. Most of the kids on our team were 3 sport athletes and spent the summer working on the farm or family business. Sure we did summer league maybe once a week for a couple months in the summer, but other than that, we only played BB for 3-4 months a year. We would go play Shiloh, Oak Grove, or Trinity and go punch for punch against guys that played one sport and spent 12 months in a gym 5 days a week. The opportunity for a city school, even with a low enrollment, to put a very good team together versus a small town school is simply not on the same level.

There's 6 class A schools listed that I didn't even know existed. That fact and the fact that ND's population has remained relatively the same kind of proves the disparity in the shrinking small town school and somewhat need for a 3 class system.

I'll admit that if I ever move back, it's likely my kids will go to a private school in Bismarck. But hopefully not playing sports, we got other cool shit to do!

 

[Rowdie]

ND has pretty tough transfer rules. A lot tougher than SD and that helps curtail recruiting. I know for a fact that Shiloh recruits Rez kids. Hard to stop all of it that's for sure. But my logic for making Private Schools go A is simple. ALL Bismarck schools should be A. Along with all Fargo, Minot, Dickinson Ect. Schools. These schools all draw off a huge population and recruit these kids from the time they're in grade school.

 

[FlatTopPete]

In my opinion, the private Christian schools have ruined Class B basketball. No I am not disparaging the students, or the teachers. If I lived in a big class A city there’s a good chance that my kids would go to one of these schools.

But, It’s simply not right that a private school located within or just outside the city limits of a large city purposely keeps its enrollment down to Class B size to compete with much much smaller rural schools. Furthermore, it would level the playing field with the larger public schools like kindred, grafton, carrington, etc.

A 3 class system in basketball in ND is long overdue and would make Class B sports a much more enjoyable experience for everyone involved.

 

[zoops]

I get class B's disdain for the private schools, but making them all class A would be dumb, and the real class A schools wouldn't want it. Why would Century want to beat Shiloh by 50 points or Minot High pound Our Redeemer's by 80? Come on.

3 classes is long overdue. With Fargo and Bismarck getting so big, there are some pretty big mismatches in class A even. Not to mention schools like Beulah playing Elgin on the B side. I don't think this will keep many co-ops from happening or reverse any but it at least gives the small schools a chance of something to play for.

 

[bigv]

I am a head boys bball coach in SD. So..what are your classes, how are they cut? We go by ADM. Average daily membership.

 

[Vollmer]

I believe it should be a 3 class system, and I like how they have made the private schools have a x2 multiplier for their enrollment. That keeps things fair, in my opinion.

I think anyone who would look at this without bias would agree that this should go through, but, like anything nowadays, it will likely get ruined by the politics of it, and end up getting shut down.

 

[zoops]

I am a head boys bball coach in SD. So..what are your classes, how are they cut? We go by ADM. Average daily membership.

Just A & B for everything other than football. Believe the cutoff line is around 350-400 students.

 

[FlatTopPete]

I get class B's disdain for the private schools, but making them all class A would be dumb, and the real class A schools wouldn't want it. Why would Century want to beat Shiloh by 50 points or Minot High pound Our Redeemer's by 80? Come on.

3 classes is long overdue. With Fargo and Bismarck getting so big, there are some pretty big mismatches in class A even. Not to mention schools like Beulah playing Elgin on the B side. I don't think this will keep many co-ops from happening or reverse any but it at least gives the small schools a chance of something to play for.

Dude read the article. It would be a 3 class system. Top class would have the biggest schools like BHS, century, West fargo etc.

Middle class would be the private Christian schools (bishop Ryan, trinity, Shiloh, etc), the smaller cities that are currently in Class A (Jamestown?) and the larger class B cities (kindred, cass county, grafton etc)

Bottom class would be the smallest enrollment’s and mostly rural communities (flasher, Napoleon, Strasburg, etc)

 

[zoops]

IMO...3 classes is NOT needed in ND. BUT what should happen is move ALL PRIVATE Schools up to A!! The ones located in A school districts!!!

Dude read the article. It would be a 3 class system. Top class would have the biggest schools like BHS, century, West fargo etc.

Middle class would be the private Christian schools (bishop Ryan, trinity, Shiloh, etc), the smaller cities that are currently in Class A (Jamestown?) and the larger class B cities (kindred, cass county, grafton etc)

Bottom class would be the smallest enrollment’s and mostly rural communities (flasher, Napoleon, Strasburg, etc)

I was responding to Rowdie's post.

 

[SerchforPerch]

Whats the point of having 3 classes? Keep it the same.

I would prefer to see the State transition over to 2 classes of High School Hockey - have an A and B tournament.

 

[dblkluk]

Let me know when we start talking a 2 class system for hockey and I'll pay attention.

 

[bigv]

I mostly like the 3 class system for bball here in SD. It keeps the smaller schools having to play the big schools too often. So my school I coach at is at the bottom population for class A. We have B, A and AA. We have had to play St. Thomas More in the state tourney a couple times. STM is in Rapid City..second largest town in the state. 70k at least? It is a private school and recruits well. Not only are they Rapid kids but they'll pull in players from area towns in the hills as well. So, they are class A and have a nice choice of athletes. I had to pull kids off the tractor a few times to make a team. The one year my team made state we faced them second round I believe. Their starting 5 all went D1. The fairness just isn't there. I've always thought that the private schools should have their own conference as well as the native schools because of so much open enrolling in the middle of the season. A town like mine of a population of 2k probably shouldn't be playing a school in Sioux Falls whos school is bigger than our town. Maybe once in awhile but not tourney play. As I said, bigger schools make cuts, often have 60-70-100 kids try out. Our small schools, sometimes we have to chase kids in hall to try to convince them to come out to make a team. Big schools....pick and choose who they want. Small schools gladly take what they can get. This leads to an unbalanced system.

 

[Kurtr]

I mostly like the 3 class system for bball here in SD. It keeps the smaller schools having to play the big schools too often. So my school I coach at is at the bottom population for class A. We have B, A and AA. We have had to play St. Thomas More in the state tourney a couple times. STM is in Rapid City..second largest town in the state. 70k at least? It is a private school and recruits well. Not only are they Rapid kids but they'll pull in players from area towns in the hills as well. So, they are class A and have a nice choice of athletes. I had to pull kids off the tractor a few times to make a team. The one year my team made state we faced them second round I believe. Their starting 5 all went D1. The fairness just isn't there. I've always thought that the private schools should have their own conference as well as the native schools because of so much open enrolling in the middle of the season. A town like mine of a population of 2k probably shouldn't be playing a school in Sioux Falls whos school is bigger than our town. Maybe once in awhile but not tourney play. As I said, bigger schools make cuts, often have 60-70-100 kids try out. Our small schools, sometimes we have to chase kids in hall to try to convince them to come out to make a team. Big schools....pick and choose who they want. Small schools gladly take what they can get. This leads to an unbalanced system.

Coming from watertown to a smaller town you are spot on we had 200 kids try out my senior year. But living here now i get to hear how the a and b teams would beat the aa teams. So just once i would like to see a tournament between the three state champs and prove a point

 

[johnr]

having no children in sports anymore, and have graduated myself years, actually decades ago, I have no interest in high school sports, but agree with Allan, the teams should be competing with like sized (school attendance records) teams.