Deer tag system changes

[Zogman]

I am old, sarcastic, cynical and have nothing to add here!

 

[WormWiggler]

Eliminate muzzleloader altogether.... running for the basement

 

[Kurtr]

Archery tag can stay over the counter but if one choses to archery hunt they are not allowed to apply for rifle or muzzy and are limited to hunting archery equipment. This would result in fewer gun / muzzy applications and increase the chance for everyone to draw a deer tag.

OR


One tag per person and all tags by the lottery system which should increase the number of tags in the drawing without having much of an impact on the amount of applicants.

and all of that revenue that is lost will be made up with a price increase in the license?

 

[dust in the wind]

Selfish on whose part the rifle hunter that wants to increase his chances of getting a tag or the archer who doesn't want to give up his guaranteed tag?

whose part do you think? There is absolutely no one stopping people from archery hunting. Absolutely NONE. Except for one person.

You want to take away the ability for myself and other archers from applying for rifle and muzzleloader all to increase your odds.....

Just because it is your choice to NOT archery hunt doesn't mean I have to give up my ability to apply for rifle and muzzleloader.


ETA - I am not opposed to a 1 tag per person system as long as it is done correctly and fairly. I've discussed this with the G&F before and myself and others have suggested the same basic system to them and part of it can't be done unless there is legislative changes and they would have to do more management of the resource. To make sure they get accurate data.

 

[ItemB]

Trying to make everyone happy is a fools errand. Their job should be to manage the resource. Not our happiness. There are only so many deer to go around.

This ^^^^^^^Improving habitat would be a good place to start(don't have any ideas on this yet)

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I think they should leave the tags and hunting seasons alone and tweak the lottery so some people aren't waiting 4+ years for a tag while another guy draws the same tag every year or every other year. Not sure how you would do it, maybe in the harder to draw for units you are simply unable to apply the year after drawing. Or maybe ramp up the point system after 2-3 years to give the guy that's been left out an even better chance at drawing. Just seems totally wrong to rely on luck alone when someone is drawing every year and another guy has to wait 4+ years for the same tag.

This isn't pee-wee sports where everybody gets a participation trophy, apply for easier draw units if a guy doesn't want to wait forever to draw a tag. I used to be that guy that drew a tag every other year, but now I am going on year 4 without drawing, the law of averages working against me maybe, to much math to figure this out with preference points and what not.

 

[LBrandt]

My idea on the subject. #1 Bow hunters restricted to recurve bows and loin cloth, no baiting or metal tree stands. #2 muzzy hunters restricted to flintlocks with 48" barrels and buckskin camo. #3 Rifle hunters restricted to surplus world war 1 guns and ammo and no scopes. With in 5 years everyone will need cow catchers on all their cars and trucks, and no one will want to hunt here from out of state.

 

[Coyote Hunter]

All these ideas with one-tag systems and changing preference points wont make a difference if the population of deer stays where it is and the population of ND continues to rise.

If you want real change, send a letter to NDGF to lower the doe license allocation. I had that talk with Terry Steinwand a couple years back when the one-tag system was all but settled. The NDGF had the perfect model in the Badlands. They did not allow mule deer doe harvest and the population increased nearly 20% for 4-5 straight years. If you want to draw tags more often, we need more deer. Now the issue with the rest of ND (outside the badlands)... is there enough habitat to support that population? Maybe not with the loss of CRP acres and loss of trees, etc.

I wonder how many of the people bitching about not drawing a tag donated their tag cost for the PLOTS program and habitat enhancement... I think I know the answer to that...


Somebody stated earlier that you if you apply for a Muzzy buck and a badlands muley tag then bitch when you don't draw, you should lose all your points... lol. I love that idea. The majority of people bitching about not drawing a tag are applying for tags that they have a 1% chance of drawing. No shit you didn't draw it... If I apply in Wyoming for only blue chip elk and deer units, I am not going to draw a tag for a LONG time. That is how supply and demand works.

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What do you guys think about doing a true preference point system? Then, the guy with the most points gets the tag. The plus to that system is that the guy with the most points is guaranteed the tag. That would eliminate the whiners who say "it's not fair that he drew a tag with 0 points and I had 8." The bad thing is that say you draw a 4C badlands tag and apply for it again in subsequent years, you have 0% chance of drawing until many years later when you are once again the guy with the most points.

Personally, I really like ND's system and wouldn't change it at all.

People would bitch that they are still only drawing a tag once every 7 or 8 years... Still doesn't change the fact that there are too many people that want too few of tags.

Wyoming has something similar to that. Theirs is a hybrid system though. It took me 8 years to draw an elk tag in a good unit and I don't really have a chance to draw that tag again for 10+ years. It is because demand is high...

 

[Obi-Wan]

What revenue will be lost?

How many bow tags were purchased in 2016?

What is the success rate with bow?

and all of that revenue that is lost will be made up with a price increase in the license?

 

[pointer]

the one plus about not having too many tags is,last ear when I was suddenly unemployed and my youngest son was injured in a car accident we were blessed with being able to hunt every day, With two doe tags in our pockets, we were not in a hurry, so we seen fewer deer in an area I have hunted for 30 years, but did see several nice bucks and at least 4 170 plus bucks in our walks and drives, got to see two fighting for 20 minutes, a real monster and a nice ( any year shooter) go at it, We both agreed maybe not getting a buck tag was not so bad at least we know where some giants are for this year. Turns out both boys got buck tags this year( the oldest has been blanked for the last 3 years). So with any luck we can get a big one this year and with a lot of luck both the boys can score a deer of a lifetime.

 

[Retired Educator]

I have shot a lot of deer in my 60+ years. If I don't get a tag in my preferred unit I can live with that. One thing that concerns me is the limited chances for young hunters. Young people who don't get a chance to hunt will eventually lose interest I'm afraid. I guess if that's true in years to come there will be way less hunters so everyone can apply for their preferred tag and there won't be many applicants.

Another issue that I'm almost scared to bring up is the gratis issue. Realize that gratis tags are beyond G&F control and don't want to get the legislature involved in deer management (I'm always skeptical about how bad the legislature will screw something up when they get involved). For me (and I am a landowner) there is something a little unfair about the choice of applying for a coveted tag and if not successful they have a virtually guaranteed gratis tag. Not 100% but very high in most units.

Don't have a good solution to the gratis as they are ok for the hunters who actually use them on their land. Those that don't are just in the group of other poachers

 

[Obi-Wan]

whose part do you think? There is absolutely no one stopping people from archery hunting. Absolutely NONE. Except for one person. Both

You want to take away the ability for myself and other archers from applying for rifle and muzzleloader all to increase your odds.....
You seem to have no issue decreasing my odds of drawing by wanting a guaranteed bow tag and a rifle or muzzy tag.....

Just because it is your choice to NOT archery hunt doesn't mean I have to give up my ability to apply for rifle and muzzleloader.
I am not saying you can't apply I am just saying with the low herd count you shouldn't be able to do both. I do bow hunt but my preferred method of hunting is rifle.

ETA - I am not opposed to a 1 tag per person system as long as it is done correctly and fairly. I've discussed this with the G&F before and myself and others have suggested the same basic system to them and part of it can't be done unless there is legislative changes and they would have to do more management of the resource. To make sure they get accurate data.

The words G&F and management of the resources can not be used in the same sentence


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They could bump the gratis tag required acreage up from the 150 or 160 that it is now and require it to be at least 1 section. If a farmers or ranchers land is split they could put down multiple qtrs that equal a section and that would eliminate guys that buy a qtr and then apply for a gratis tag.

I have shot a lot of deer in my 60+ years. If I don't get a tag in my preferred unit I can live with that. One thing that concerns me is the limited chances for young hunters. Young people who don't get a chance to hunt will eventually lose interest I'm afraid. I guess if that's true in years to come there will be way less hunters so everyone can apply for their preferred tag and there won't be many applicants.

Another issue that I'm almost scared to bring up is the gratis issue. Realize that gratis tags are beyond G&F control and don't want to get the legislature involved in deer management (I'm always skeptical about how bad the legislature will screw something up when they get involved). For me (and I am a landowner) there is something a little unfair about the choice of applying for a coveted tag and if not successful they have a virtually guaranteed gratis tag. Not 100% but very high in most units.

Don't have a good solution to the gratis as they are ok for the hunters who actually use them on their land. Those that don't are just in the group of other poachers

 

[dust in the wind]

The words G&F and management of the resources can not be used in the same sentence

So explain WHY you think it is necessary to take away opportunity to rifle and/or muzzleloader hunt from archers just to increase your odds?

I and the other archers haven't decreased your odds one bit. We've applied this way for many many years. The reduction of habitat and reduced deer numbers thus reducing the number of tags HAS reduced your odds - not the other hunters.

Not to mention the increase of applicants too.

 

[labhunter66]

I have shot a lot of deer in my 60+ years. If I don't get a tag in my preferred unit I can live with that. One thing that concerns me is the limited chances for young hunters. Young people who don't get a chance to hunt will eventually lose interest I'm afraid. I guess if that's true in years to come there will be way less hunters so everyone can apply for their preferred tag and there won't be many applicants.

Another issue that I'm almost scared to bring up is the gratis issue. Realize that gratis tags are beyond G&F control and don't want to get the legislature involved in deer management (I'm always skeptical about how bad the legislature will screw something up when they get involved). For me (and I am a landowner) there is something a little unfair about the choice of applying for a coveted tag and if not successful they have a virtually guaranteed gratis tag. Not 100% but very high in most units.

Don't have a good solution to the gratis as they are ok for the hunters who actually use them on their land. Those that don't are just in the group of other poachers

11, 12, and 13 year olds are guaranteed a doe tag - and in some cases 10 year olds - and 14 year olds are guaranteed a buck tag. That's 4 years of opportunity to get your kid hooked on hunting along with many other hunting opportunities in the state. It's also important during those times that parents get kids to understand that this is probably as good as they're going to get it and explain the reasons why that's the case. If that's accomplished we'll have much less bitching when people don't get drawn.

 

[Bfishn]

What revenue will be lost?

How many bow tags were purchased in 2016?

What is the success rate with bow?

Archery success is half the rate of rifle. Selling bow tags generates the most revenue and opportunity with the least impact on the deer, which is exactly the combo you need when deer numbers are low and you can't give out rifle tags because of the high success rate. You have to replace the $ with the least impact possible.

 

[Flatrock]

People would bitch that they are still only drawing a tag once every 7 or 8 years... Still doesn't change the fact that there are too many people that want too few of tags.

Wyoming has something similar to that. Theirs is a hybrid system though. It took me 8 years to draw an elk tag in a good unit and I don't really have a chance to draw that tag again for 10+ years. It is because demand is high...

Yea I really like Wyoming's system for non-residents. Preference point/random draw combo. Gives everybody a chance to draw but also gives the tags to the guys with the most points. Although for residents it is a straight up random draw every year.

Like I said, I wouldn't change ND's system at all.

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The words G&F and management of the resources can not be used in the same sentence

How so? I think the game and fish has done a damn good job managing the deer population.

 

[WormWiggler]

and all of that revenue that is lost will be made up with a price increase in the license?

Proper implementation of rock to the fender vehicle replacement is probably the best method to replace lost revenue.

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All these ideas with one-tag systems and changing preference points wont make a difference if the population of deer stays where it is and the population of ND continues to rise.

If you want real change, send a letter to NDGF to lower the doe license allocation. I had that talk with Terry Steinwand a couple years back when the one-tag system was all but settled. The NDGF had the perfect model in the Badlands. They did not allow mule deer doe harvest and the population increased nearly 20% for 4-5 straight years. If you want to draw tags more often, we need more deer. Now the issue with the rest of ND (outside the badlands)... is there enough habitat to support that population? Maybe not with the loss of CRP acres and loss of trees, etc.

I wonder how many of the people bitching about not drawing a tag donated their tag cost for the PLOTS program and habitat enhancement... I think I know the answer to that...


Somebody stated earlier that you if you apply for a Muzzy buck and a badlands muley tag then bitch when you don't draw, you should lose all your points... lol. I love that idea. The majority of people bitching about not drawing a tag are applying for tags that they have a 1% chance of drawing. No shit you didn't draw it... If I apply in Wyoming for only blue chip elk and deer units, I am not going to draw a tag for a LONG time. That is how supply and demand works.

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People would bitch that they are still only drawing a tag once every 7 or 8 years... Still doesn't change the fact that there are too many people that want too few of tags.

Wyoming has something similar to that. Theirs is a hybrid system though. It took me 8 years to draw an elk tag in a good unit and I don't really have a chance to draw that tag again for 10+ years. It is because demand is high...

I think you are not considering the weather implications and other factors in all this.

Bunch of pleasant easy winters + CRP & Plots = high deer population. We were in high cotton as hunters along with body shop guys.

Then what happened...

3 tough, bad winters + a change in land = mother nature showed us who is really in charge.

Someone stated the writing on the wall....


Too few deer for too many people.... welcome to the future.

Sort of writes its own reason for one tag per person per year all by itself...

more than 1 tag is just flat out greed...


Dammit, I feel like GST after typing all that crap... I need a bath

 

[Obi-Wan]

Archery success is half the rate of rifle. Selling bow tags generates the most revenue and opportunity with the least impact on the deer, which is exactly the combo you need when deer numbers are low and you can't give out rifle tags because of the high success rate. You have to replace the $ with the least impact possible.

Do you have actual statistics on your claim of less than 50% success in archery

 

[Bed Wetter]

You all are overthinking this. Individuals should compete against each other for tags. I can think of at least one person here I'd like to remove from the reproductive pool and the deer tag I'd get in return would be icing on the cake.

 

[Ericb]

When so many people are going 3-7 years without a tag they are choosing not to take advantage of other opportunities. How many tags do you really think would be added to some of the more popular units if it went to a one tag system? How many more applicants would there be for those Tags? I could see a one tag system increasing the odds of a every year draw in the less popular units(that anyone can apply in currently) and even decreasing the odds in the more popular units.

 

[Bfishn]

Do you have actuall statistics on your claim of less than 50% success in archery

In 2015 rifle hunters had a 68% success rate while only spending 4.3 days in the field. Archery hunters had a 35% success with 10.7 days in the field.