House Bill 1151- Prohibiting baiting bans

espringers

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Cwd doesn't effect population numbers cause it takes years to become fatal. Most deer don't make it to death by old age. And if it eventually only kills old deer, I don't see the issue unless we are worried bout it jumping. But, if it does, less deer will meet their demise via hunting and we will have more deer on the landscape than we know what to do with. Non issue to me.
 


guywhofishes

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They G&F is a fiduciary agency that is bound by the ND Constitution and century code to protect wildlife populations for all residents and visitors.
Being effective in protecting - is part and parcel of protecting.

Can we PLEASE stop referring back to this mandate as a rationale for allowing them to implement ineffective measures in their pursuit of “protecting”.

This mandate simply doesn’t give them an excuse for implementing measures that don’t appreciably improve the situation!!!
 
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guywhofishes

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“Sure - their measures aren’t demonstrably effective - but they are charged with doing something, so you can’t push back.”

BS
 

Fritz the Cat

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https://deerassociation.com/9-facts-about-targeted-removal-for-fighting-cwd/

These people are goofier than pet coons. The contortionist language they use to support culling is purposeful.

Grifters.

The fellow who helped start the non-governmental org National Deer Alliance is Jay McAninch.

https://deerassociation.com/bios/jay-mcanich/

Before that, Jay helped create Archery Trade Association. Which is a contributing member of Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies:

https://www.fishwildlife.org/landing/membership/member-list

National Deer Alliance is not (yet) a contributing member of AFWA.

Before helping create these non-governmental orgs, Jay McAninch worked for the government as a biologist. Mostly the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources.

1679270467431.png
 

wct12

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So the statistics show that doing something might help. They G&F is a fiduciary agency that is bound by the ND Constitution and century code to protect wildlife populations for all residents and visitors. They banned baiting and you didn’t like it so you look past the parts of data that don’t push your narrative, the exact thing you claim they’re doing.


Lol, didn’t realize I had to. You’d have to point me to where you see that. I can’t speak for either as to why they would or did.
Protect wildlife populations for all residents and visitors... the statistics also show doing nothing (not implement baiting bans) gets us right to where states that have end up also.. all while not reducing populations beyond Mother Nature or an increase in deer tags..

The game and fishes population management for moose is "as much as land owners can tolerate". Jeb said in the fall advisory board in minot.. that seems like a very scientific and thoughtful approach for management.. they say 75,000 tags is a sustainable population for deer in nodak.. what about the mismanagement where that population exploded enough to double that tag number (btw CWD was found the next year in nodak if I remember right).

You think that the appointed director of an agency, and the head wildlife vet making falsified or incorrect statements to the senate committee isn't an issue?.. it's right on the ndlegis website testimony tab for 1151..
 
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wct12

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Cwd doesn't effect population numbers cause it takes years to become fatal. Most deer don't make it to death by old age. And if it eventually only kills old deer, I don't see the issue unless we are worried bout it jumping. But, if it does, less deer will meet their demise via hunting and we will have more deer on the landscape than we know what to do with. Non issue to me.
The average lifecycle of a deer in nodak is 3 years old.. CWD takes 2-3 years to even possibly show a symptom. CWD is not passed from does to their fawns through birth meaning every fawn from a CWD positive doe is born negative, then has to contract it down the road.

They use "always fatal disease" as a scare tactic, just like saying "it targets big bucks". Prions don't target specific genders one way or the other..

A scared, uninformed public is a controllable public.. they claim in a 2021 survey that 75%? of people Approve their baiting restrictions and think they are doing a good job in North Dakota. If that was true, why would this bill have this much traction, and why would testimony be at 72% in support of 1151.
 

bravo

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Protect wildlife populations for all residents and visitors... the statistics also show doing nothing (not implement baiting bans) gets us right to where states that have end up also.. all while not reducing populations beyond Mother Nature or an increase in deer tags..

The game and fishes population management for moose is "as much as land owners can tolerate". Jeb said in the fall advisory board in minot.. that seems like a very scientific and thoughtful approach for management.. they say 75,000 tags is a sustainable population for deer in nodak.. what about the mismanagement where that population exploded enough to double that tag number (btw CWD was found the next year in nodak if I remember right).

You think that the appointed director of an agency, and the head wildlife vet making falsified or incorrect statements to the senate committee isn't an issue?.. it's right on the ndlegis website testimony tab for 1151..
So the moose carrying capacity of our state is higher than what they gather farmers will tolerate before crop and property damage is done. Therefore they aim to keep the population in that sweet spot where folks have an opportunity to see or hunt these animals and farmers are happy. And you have a problem with that? Enlighten us on your ideal moose population management practices. As far as deer it would be impossible to manage an exact number year by year obviously. Most population goals are multi-year average. An unexpectedly strong breeding year could throw the population of considerably. Part of population management is projected subtraction from Mother Nature. A warm winter with fewer predators and your year class spikes. Ecology 101.

And no, I would not be ok with falsified or incorrect statements being made to the senate committee. Honestly, point them out to me. What stood out to me was Senator Ruby making a fool out of himself trying to look smarter than he is with his “got ya” questions.
 
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Kentucky Windage

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The game and fish has a link on their website tracking all the outdoor related bills, bills that are voted on and potentially signed into law by the governor. I’m failing to see why this bill in particular is going to change the landscape of future outdoor legislation. The people of this state have had the opportunity to contact and express their opinions to their elected officials on where they stand on this issue. The people have no ability to do that in my eyes with the game and fish. They fly their own flag. At the end of the day, this is about what the people want regardless of what the game and fish wants. That’s the way this thing works. I think we can all agree that we want a sustainable big game population now and forever. I would also think that we agree that CWD needs to studied in the future. No one is saying they can’t help manage CWD, but the hypocrisy is noticeably strong with their methods currently. At the end of the day, are food plots, bait, or entire agricultural crop fields that different from each other? My answer is no, especially in a winter like the one where we are having this year. The deer don’t care about anything other than survival. Throwing out some bait for a few months isn’t going to get all the deer killed from CWD.
 

wct12

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Cwd doesn't effect population numbers cause it takes years to become fatal. Most deer don't make it to death by old age. And if it eventually only kills old deer, I don't see the issue unless we are worried bout it jumping. But, if it does, less deer will meet their demise via hunting and we will have more deer on the landscape than we know what to do with. Non issue to me.
The average lifecycle of a deer in nodak is 3 years old.. CWD takes 2-3 years to even possibly show a symptom. CWD is not passed from does to their fawns through birth meaning every fawn from a CWD positive doe is born negative, then has to contract it down the road.

They use "always fatal disease" as a scare tactic, just like saying "it targets big bucks". Prions don't target specific genders one way or the other..
 

wct12

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So the moose carrying capacity of our state is higher than what they gather farmers will tolerate before crop and property damage is done. Therefore they aim to keep the population in that sweet spot where folks have an opportunity to see or hunt these animals and farmers are happy. And you have a problem with that? Enlighten us on your ideal moose population management practices. As far as deer it would be impossible to manage an exact number year by year obviously. Most population goals are multi-year average. An unexpectedly strong breeding year could throw the population of considerably. Part of population management is projected subtraction from Mother Nature. A warm winter with fewer predators and your year class spikes. Ecology 101.

And no, I would not be ok with falsified or incorrect statements being made to the senate committee. Honestly, point them out to me. What stood out to me was Senator Ruby making a fool out of himself trying to look smarter than he is with his “got ya” questions.
If the game and fish department actually talked with landowners in the area where moose presence is high, there would be a pretty large difference between what their idea of land owner tolerance and what actual land owner tolerance.. I just so happen to live in one of those areas and have helped multiple 50+" bulls be shot, and I guarantee you landowner talk isn't much in favor of the population (it's on the decline and I'm guessing tag numbers will reflect that this year.. but the people that live here every day and interact don't know anything about the current population because they didn't take a class on it in college). And access for moose wasn't that hard to obtain, but the last couple years the trend has been different due to a number of reasons.

The same can be said for deer management. I'll see if I can get the link to post tomorrow from my labtop or the year by year deer tags given out. For multiple years it was almost double what is a sustainable population and I believe an Ehd out break in late 200s with a few harsh winters drove that population down.. the only one with the ability to manage those deer numbers is the game and fish department.. no one has any input on tag numbers besides them.. and they showed a multi year fail at being to do that, and now the population is below what they say as sustainable but with a trend back up without the habitat to support it anymore. They used to give away multiple tags per year to people to try and get it in check..

If you watched testimony it's pretty easy to see and was pointed out early the exact time in Charlie's testimony on the prion percolating.. the CWD genetic resistance is tiptoed around in that same testimony. as far as the Jeb Williams talking around the real answer.. that was in questions asked to him by senate members (believe it was magrum that asked it, it's been a couple days since I've rewatched all the testimony's).
 


wct12

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The game and fish has a link on their website tracking all the outdoor related bills, bills that are voted on and potentially signed into law by the governor. I’m failing to see why this bill in particular is going to change the landscape of future outdoor legislation. The people of this state have had the opportunity to contact and express their opinions to their elected officials on where they stand on this issue. The people have no ability to do that in my eyes with the game and fish. They fly their own flag. At the end of the day, this is about what the people want regardless of what the game and fish wants. That’s the way this thing works. I think we can all agree that we want a sustainable big game population now and forever. I would also think that we agree that CWD needs to studied in the future. No one is saying they can’t help manage CWD, but the hypocrisy is noticeably strong with their methods currently. At the end of the day, are food plots, bait, or entire agricultural crop fields that different from each other? My answer is no, especially in a winter like the one where we are having this year. The deer don’t care about anything other than survival. Throwing out some bait for a few months isn’t going to get all the deer killed from CWD.
People forget the words "by LAW and regulation" in the right to hunt amendment in our state constitution.. some of the very groups that are in opposition to it because "state government should stay out of the wildlife management" had 0 problems with the the attempted feeding bans in 07 and 09..

Those same deer that meet at the same bait pile are meeting under the same wild plum/apple tree, water holes, scrapes/rubs, and best habitat even in the months they aren't yarded up yet.. deer natural congregate to the things that are needed to survive all year, so why a bait pile can't be one of them is a head scratcher, especially when the game and fish will pay for me to artificially congregate deer to a small area through there food plot program. But a bait pile isn't ethical, a food plot is.. just listen to the people's testimony in opposition. Ethics is mentioned at least a couple times.
 

Kentucky Windage

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People forget the words "by LAW and regulation" in the right to hunt amendment in our state constitution.. some of the very groups that are in opposition to it because "state government should stay out of the wildlife management" had 0 problems with the the attempted feeding bans in 07 and 09..

Those same deer that meet at the same bait pile are meeting under the same wild plum/apple tree, water holes, scrapes/rubs, and best habitat even in the months they aren't yarded up yet.. deer natural congregate to the things that are needed to survive all year, so why a bait pile can't be one of them is a head scratcher, especially when the game and fish will pay for me to artificially congregate deer to a small area through there food plot program. But a bait pile isn't ethical, a food plot is.. just listen to the people's testimony in opposition. Ethics is mentioned at least a couple times.
Agreed
 

8andcounting

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If the game and fish department actually talked with landowners in the area where moose presence is high, there would be a pretty large difference between what their idea of land owner tolerance and what actual land owner tolerance.. I just so happen to live in one of those areas and have helped multiple 50+" bulls be shot, and I guarantee you landowner talk isn't much in favor of the population (it's on the decline and I'm guessing tag numbers will reflect that this year.. but the people that live here every day and interact don't know anything about the current population because they didn't take a class on it in college). And access for moose wasn't that hard to obtain, but the last couple years the trend has been different due to a number of reasons.

The same can be said for deer management. I'll see if I can get the link to post tomorrow from my labtop or the year by year deer tags given out. For multiple years it was almost double what is a sustainable population and I believe an Ehd out break in late 200s with a few harsh winters drove that population down.. the only one with the ability to manage those deer numbers is the game and fish department.. no one has any input on tag numbers besides them.. and they showed a multi year fail at being to do that, and now the population is below what they say as sustainable but with a trend back up without the habitat to support it anymore. They used to give away multiple tags per year to people to try and get it in check..

If you watched testimony it's pretty easy to see and was pointed out early the exact time in Charlie's testimony on the prion percolating.. the CWD genetic resistance is tiptoed around in that same testimony. as far as the Jeb Williams talking around the real answer.. that was in questions asked to him by senate members (believe it was magrum that asked it, it's been a couple days since I've rewatched all the testimony's).
Totally hit the nail on the head
 

lunkerslayer

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I'm just wondering who this new member is wct12 perhaps an old member regardless you bring us some incite welcome
 

wct12

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I'm just wondering who this new member is wct12 perhaps an old member regardless you bring us some incite welcome
I'm guessing you're thinking gst.. I've addressed that before on here. He is my father. I actually think I've dropped my name on here also if I remember right but could be wrong
 


bravo

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People forget the words "by LAW and regulation" in the right to hunt amendment in our state constitution.. some of the very groups that are in opposition to it because "state government should stay out of the wildlife management" had 0 problems with the the attempted feeding bans in 07 and 09..

Those same deer that meet at the same bait pile are meeting under the same wild plum/apple tree, water holes, scrapes/rubs, and best habitat even in the months they aren't yarded up yet.. deer natural congregate to the things that are needed to survive all year, so why a bait pile can't be one of them is a head scratcher, especially when the game and fish will pay for me to artificially congregate deer to a small area through there food plot program. But a bait pile isn't ethical, a food plot is.. just listen to the people's testimony in opposition. Ethics is mentioned at least a couple times.
I’m not sure which groups had a stance on baiting or what they were during those years.

You’re not stupid, so don’t don’t pretend you don’t understand the difference between a deer herd sharing a multi- acre food plot, a few browsing under a single tree, and families cycling in eating the same pile of corn all day every day. Transmission of any disease, CWD or not would be higher and that is just simple common sense. Your argument would hold more water and be taken more seriously if you just pointed out that disease rates would likely only be slowed not stopped, and show how the weighed benefits of banning bait are negligible. And I agree, ethics shouldn’t have any bearing on the taking of game over bait, so long as it’s still fair chase.

I just want to know. Is this the end goal? Just baiting? Is there something on the Stockman’s Association or Farm Bureau’s agenda for next session pertaining to game laws?
 

lunkerslayer

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I'm guessing you're thinking gst.. I've addressed that before on here. He is my father. I actually think I've dropped my name on here also if I remember right but could be wrong
I never had a problem with your oldman we didn't see to eye to eye on marijuana but he brought lots of incite. Anyways welcome friend
 

NDSportsman

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Fact: Once CWD is in an area it is there in the soil for years with or without deer.
Fact: Eliminating deer will not stop CWD or the spread of CWD.
Fact: Eliminating baiting will not stop CWD or the spread of CWD.
Fact: A baiting ban has ZERO influence on CWD or the spread of CWD.
Fact: Natural selection will eventually solve the CWD issue as it has pretty much every disease issue since the beginning of time.

These have all been proven as fact by research!

It's funny how they love to preach "Let nature take it's course" but then they try to influence stuff like this with bait bans and culling practices.
 

Fritz the Cat

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Baiting has been banned in Minnesota. Now, incrementally they are banning feeding. Anyone knows if freedoms are taken in one fell swoop from the people they will bulk. If freedoms are taken gradually by degrees, they can reluctantly accept.

The Bill HB 1151 had one mission, make Game and Fish prove their science.

Here is what was going to happen in ND if no one challenged things. One by one each deer hunting unit was incrementally going to be banned for baiting until the whole State is closed. After that they would have moved on to ban feeding. Feed restrictions are already happening in Minnesota so the precedent is happening.
 

wct12

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I’m not sure which groups had a stance on baiting or what they were during those years.

You’re not stupid, so don’t don’t pretend you don’t understand the difference between a deer herd sharing a multi- acre food plot, a few browsing under a single tree, and families cycling in eating the same pile of corn all day every day. Transmission of any disease, CWD or not would be higher and that is just simple common sense. Your argument would hold more water and be taken more seriously if you just pointed out that disease rates would likely only be slowed not stopped, and show how the weighed benefits of banning bait are negligible. And I agree, ethics shouldn’t have any bearing on the taking of game over bait, so long as it’s still fair chase.

I just want to know. Is this the end goal? Just baiting? Is there something on the Stockman’s Association or Farm Bureau’s agenda for next session pertaining to game laws?
Chairman Patten, Committee Members… My name is Wyatt Thompson. I will be talking about some data that the Game and Fish has been collecting from unit 3F2. CWD was first found in North Dakota in 2009 in the southwestern part of the state, more specifically inside the borders of unit 3F2. The North Dakota game and fish department then moved quickly, implementing the first restriction on hunting over bait in thestate within the borders of unit 3F2 through their 2010 Chronic Wasting Disease proclamation, even after a bill to ban baiting introduced into the legislature in 2007 and 2009 was shot down.
70 positive CWD cases have been found in North Dakota in 13 years of testing. 48 of these cases have come from 3f2, or 68.6% of all positives. In the last 3 years of released data 2019-2021, 34 of 52 positives have come from 3F2, or 65% of positives from that time frame, even though the baiting restriction had been in place for 9 years prior.
-I did not include 2022 data in this as it was not released when I typed this originally but would include 8 more positives from 3F2.
In North Dakota since 2009 there has been 1 deer found dead in our state where they say CWD was the possible cause ofdeath but are unable, with 100% certainty, to say that CWD was the direct cause. This deer was found dead, then tested positive.For a disease that is being pushed as always fatal, in a state where the average lifespan of a deer is roughly 3 years and a disease that usually takes 3-4 years to show symptoms, my question is where are the dead deer in the state from this always fatal disease, especially in units with higher prevalence rates?
In the spring of 2019, after finding that one doe that had possibly died due to CWD, the ND Game and Fish department went in and did targeted removal of 52 additional deer, 29 adults and 23 yearlings and fawns. After the results came back, withnot 1 of these deer testing positive, none of the meat was used or donated, just disposed of. The North Dakota Game and Fish Department culled 52 CWD negative deer for test results on a disease that has had 1 possible fatality in our state.
After running through those numbers and remembering a baiting restriction has been in place now for 12 years total in 3F2, has that restriction the Game and Fish implemented been effective at impacting spread beyond a normal, natural deer to deer interaction, especially after the drastic spike the last 3 years?
At a Minot CWD meeting this past year, the Game and Fish Department stated they are moving away from data collection in 3F2, going to less frequent but more thorough testing. although from 2019 through 2021 hunter head participation across the state has already dropped from 15% to 4.9% over that time span. 3F2 has been the data collection site in the state that could back up the science they want us to believe… That a baiting restriction slows the spread of CWD, yet they are moving away from data there, specifically after the huge leap in positives from 2019 through 2022. Perhaps the data and science does NOT match the narrative and agenda.
Casey Anderson mentioned in his testimony in the house that in 2021 there was an independent survey sent out to hunters in North Dakota where 74% perceived a baiting restriction to be slightly to very effective at managing CWD.. If that independent survey was correct, why would this bill have this much traction? Submitted Testimony in support of this Bill on the House side was about 75% and had one of the largest numbers of testimony submitted out of any bill introduced, with an 80% due pass on the House Floor.
I thank you for the opportunity to testify today and will answer any questions to the best of my abilities that the committee might have.
Thank you for your time,
Wyatt Thompson

That's the testimony submitted by me.. I do touch on the stuff you brought up some about being slowed instead.. but I also say that after a 10+ year ban in 3f2 there has now been a large spike in instances, even with a decrease in percentages of heads tested.. if banning baiting was as effective as they state wouldn't there be a gradual incline from year 1, and not a large leap 10 years down the road? The fact the game and fish is going away from every year head collections in 3f2 is at least a little concerning on a data collection side of things in my book.

If 1151 does pass, I'll be interested in seeing how quickly the game and fish goes back to studying in 3f2 or 3a1 and claims that a repeal on the baiting restriction is the reason for the numbers they get instead of just the upward trajectory it's already currently on
 


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