House Bill 1151- Prohibiting baiting bans

[guywhofishes]

 

[lunkerslayer]

https://knoxradio.com/2023/03/17/nd-game-and-fish-release-cwd-report/

 

[EnglishCocker]

So this is the last sentence of the article linked above.

Honest question - Has there ever been any drastic population impacts attributed to CWD other than the massive culling that has taken place in some states?

EHD - There are drastic population impacts that are easily attributed to this disease.

 

[5575]

So this is the last sentence of the article linked above.

Honest question - Has there ever been any drastic population impacts attributed to CWD other than the massive culling that has taken place in some states?

EHD - There are drastic population impacts that are easily attributed to this disease.

That was a point I made in my written testimony, EHD has wiped out our whitetails in my area.
Wy has never allowed baiting and CWD is rampant there, yet Texas does nothing but bait on massive scale and CWD isn't an issue.
Their "science" doesn't make sense..

 

[wct12]

So this is the last sentence of the article linked above.

Honest question - Has there ever been any drastic population impacts attributed to CWD other than the massive culling that has taken place in some states?

EHD - There are drastic population impacts that are easily attributed to this disease.

Did a little (or lot) of studying on Saskatchewan during this whole thing writing my testimony..

Across the province mule deer pops are steady to increasing, white tail are increasing and they have a total prevalence of 20 something percent.. the south western portion of sask where there is upper 80s% in prevalence (they claim + or -9%) have had a slight decline in population, and there has been an increase in tags there as a management plan to try and reduce the population. Hunter success from 2020 to 2021 also drastically increased due in large part to Canadas strict covid policy's they are claiming.

Then everyone wants to claim Colorado and Wyoming as examples of what they want us to do (baiting restrictions in place). Wyoming still has a prevalence rate in the low 20%s if I remember right as a whole with multiple units pushing 50% prevalence and one bumping 70%.

"Slow the spread" and be reactive instead of proactive.. the name of the game for the G&F.. universities are working with the private sector to attempt to be proactive and find something that could help whether it be genetic resistance (Charlie B tip toes around this in his testimony) and things like copper and humic acid to help (whether they work or not is being studied but it's just thrown out the window without data either way by the game and fish).. peer reviewed studies take time with most of these being picked up the last few years so data isn't out, but instead of the game and fish being involved and being proactive with something besides checking another unit off with baiting restrictions, they could use some of that federal money they received (Jeb W skirts his sway around this in his testimony) to put into actually studying this disease and trying to find something that might work instead of doing head counts (has dropped from 15% to 4.2% involvement since 2019), increasing baiting restrictions, and putting decals on their pickups.

 

[wct12]

So this is the last sentence of the article linked above.

Honest question - Has there ever been any drastic population impacts attributed to CWD other than the massive culling that has taken place in some states?

EHD - There are drastic population impacts that are easily attributed to this disease.

Some states like Utah that currently have a baiting ban and experiencing terrible winters and herd die offs due to them after now supplementally feeding deer to try and get them through.

Imagine if there was all kinds of bait piles for supplemental feed around areas up there instead.. but news releases by the dnr in Utah says that the public shouldn't feed animals, just them because they are the experts..

In our great state of nodak, the farmers, ranchers and sportsmen are trying to get deer through the winter right now and in previous years with supplemental feeding instead of having massive die offs like have been experienced before by purchasing multiple feed sources out of their own pocket.. and this is looked down on by the game and fish department as a bad practice. People doing what is for the betterment of the population instead of allowing large die offs, but trust them.. they are the experts with letters behind their name and know how set out second cutting alfalfa bales and mix in some grain with it better or plow pathes through the snow so deer can get down and scratch and browse better then us

 

[wct12]

The other thing the game and fish claims is this handcuffs their ability to battle CWD.. the game and fish will still have their implemented carcass transportation laws in place, and as my dad testified, the state board of animal health can make decisions and rules on this if it becomes an epidemic "that's always fatal" because it would impact deer and elk farms which they classify as nontraditional livestock.

The game and fish can and has worked with the state board of animal health in the past. This bill just makes it so they aren't the sole organization in charge, and would have to work with experts (state vet and state board of animal health members are every bit as qualified as the state wildlife vet on animal diseases) who would have input on this besides them..

 

[bravo]

So now we do trust the “experts”? Or only until you disagree with their conclusions, then we’re back to square one where they’re crooked government hacks.

 

[wct12]

So now we do trust the “experts”? Or only until you disagree with their conclusions, then we’re back to square one where they’re crooked government hacks.

When the "experts" back off and say CWD prions can percolate down in the soil over time in a food plot, but in house testimony says they stay present in soil for years posing a risk.. I don't know why I should trust that expert.

The state board of animal health is made up members that have been elected to positions in the orgs they represent and have accountability back to the people that put them in that position therefore being accountable back to the people of North Dakota.. the Game and Fish hasn't had any form of accountability on this until now.. and came out and said if the state/unit ever became CWD free they have no protocol in place to repeal baiting restrictions, doesn't make it seem like ethics doesn't at least play some form of role.

That same expert also tip toed around the topic of genetic resistance that has proven to have some leg to stand on (they compare to scrapie's a lot as prion diseases and look what genetics has done for that in sheep and what deer farms are dumping tons of money into researching). Imagine if they would have genome mapped those 52 deer by williston they killed to see if there was some form of genetic resistance in the wild herd there instead of just running a CWD test and then throwing them in the dump.

When "experts" prove themselves to be untrustworthy and not have the data to back it up.. I'll question them absolutely. When hard data comes forth to prove me wrong, I'll bite my tongue and admit I am wrong..

 

[Fritz the Cat]

https://video.ndlegis.gov/en/PowerB...vqEV8opt6CJTPGsytJYhYc4_fueHVXCsIRj_hPRCA1SE0

At 10:36:20 Senator Boehm asks G&F DVM Charlie Bahnson, "Can prions stay in the soil forever?"

Dr. Bahnson responds, "The reality is we don't know the end. There is a study in sheep in Iceland demonstrating it can remain infectious for 16 years. We don't know the end result in all pracitcality it is very very long. It might even be a matter of when prions percolate down into the soil where they are not available on the surface."

........Speculation or science? No matter, Dr. Bahnson's whole answer is wrong. The playbook our NDGF is using has been adopted from the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies. It says here below, plants can uptake prions from contaminated soil. Plants have roots.

https://www.fishwildlife.org/applic...3/AFWA_Technical_Report_on_CWD_BMPs_FINAL.pdf

Page 80 and 81 say:

Prion Resistance
The ability of the CWD prion to be transmitted horizontally and the length of time prions remain infectious in the environment may perpetuate epizootics (Johnson et al. 2006). Experimental 81 research has found that prions can bind to soil, remain infectious, and upon exposure to certain soil types (e.g., high percentage clay and pH >6.6) may even have enhanced persistence and infectivity (Johnson et al. 2007). While prions in live cervids and their excretions, carcasses, and contaminated environments pose the greatest concentration of prions, lab-based research has demonstrated that grass and plants can bind prions from exposure on the surface and uptake prion from contaminated soil.

Not too many people are willing to read the whole 111 page AFWA document written in gubment speak. One guy did and submitted testimony:

https://ndlegis.gov/assembly/68-202...151-20230316-25121-F-WILLIAMSON_MATTHEW_W.pdf

 

[Kentucky Windage]

So now we do trust the “experts”? Or only until you disagree with their conclusions, then we’re back to square one where they’re crooked government hacks.

Who does the game and fish answer to?

 

[bravo]

Who does the game and fish answer to?

The director and or governor, same as the DOT or any other agency. Imagine if game and fish set regs based on the will of people and not basic biology / ecology.

 

[bravo]

When "experts" prove themselves to be untrustworthy and not have the data to back it up.. I'll question them absolutely. When hard data comes forth to prove me wrong, I'll bite my tongue and admit I am wrong..

Do you have hard data that proves you right?

 

[Kentucky Windage]

The director and or governor, same as the DOT or any other agency. Imagine if game and fish set regs based on the will of people and not basic biology / ecology.

This is strike 3 for the game and fish deciding how things should be done according their agenda. This bill is one of them and they need to get backhanded. If you take the most recent posts discussing baiting/food plots/ CWD prion existence, they are more than hypocritical about their stance on this issue.

Changing gears, what would the game and fish have to do or implement in order for you to say enough is enough? If you handed Bergum a gun, he wouldn’t know the muzzle from the butt. No oversight there. The director or any director wants to create a need for there existence and growth of the department because.......$$$$$$$.

 

[bravo]

Changing gears, what would the game and fish have to do or implement in order for you to say enough is enough? If you handed Bergum a gun, he wouldn’t know the muzzle from the butt. No oversight there. The director or any director wants to create a need for there existence and growth of the department because.......$$$$$$$.

Anything that spits directly in the face of the common man or conservation I guess. Hard to think of an example. Maybe caving to the ag groups and allocating tags to large landowners at the expense of other’s opportunity. This bill is the legal chink on the armor for that to come to fruition. I promise you you’ll see it in the next session.

I’m with you on Doug. Out of touch with the average Nodak.

Edit: I guess what I’m saying is I can’t fathom throwing away what is one of the better managed big game populations (and also birds / fish) for a pile of corn. I like using bait and see the value. No ethical issue at all. But if you really want to see more Hunter success, expand opportunities. Expand PLOTS, CRP, get rid of the no net gain of public land, adopt a block management style access program to incentivize landowners, G&F’s outreach biologists should be clear with management goals and progress and address public concern publicly. That’s just off the top of my head.

 

[Trapper62]

● 2004 Wisconsin embarked on a plan to eradicate all deer off the landscape in a 287 square mile zone using hunters and sharpshooters.

● 2012 Eight years later, 172,000 deer had been removed from the Wisconsin eradication zone at a cost of $32 million dollars. Governor Scott Walker empaneled a committee to evaluate the control and prevention strategies including population reduction, feeding bans of wildlife, baiting of deer, importation of carcasses, bans on importation of trophies, restrictions on taxidermists and bans on urine based scents. The committee concluded, "none of this had been effective." The eradication zone created a vacuum and deer from surrounding areas simply moved in.

Here is an interesting tidbit, Wisconsin has lost 200,000 hunters since 2004.

My cousin lives in the “eradication” zone, if failed big. Now they have “earn a buck”, not sure in the total number but you get “X” number of doe tags and when you register it they give you a buck tag. According to him they have great deer numbers and buck quality seems to be getting better.

 

[guywhofishes]

https://deerassociation.com/9-facts-about-targeted-removal-for-fighting-cwd/

These people are goofier than pet coons. The contortionist language they use to support culling is purposeful.

Grifters.

 

[wct12]

Anything that spits directly in the face of the common man or conservation I guess. Hard to think of an example. Maybe caving to the ag groups and allocating tags to large landowners at the expense of other’s opportunity. This bill is the legal chink on the armor for that to come to fruition. I promise you you’ll see it in the next session.

I’m with you on Doug. Out of touch with the average Nodak.

Edit: I guess what I’m saying is I can’t fathom throwing away what is one of the better managed big game populations (and also birds / fish) for a pile of corn. I like using bait and see the value. No ethical issue at all. But if you really want to see more Hunter success, expand opportunities. Expand PLOTS, CRP, get rid of the no net gain of public land, adopt a block management style access program to incentivize landowners, G&F’s outreach biologists should be clear with management goals and progress and address public concern publicly. That’s just off the top of my head.

You should ask the game and fish about their stance on block management land in North Dakota.. I know someone that's tried through advisory board meetings to bring a block management type access to North Dakota. It wasn't the land owners in the room that weren't in favor of it.. it was the ND game and fish that continually shut it down..

I'll post a couple links up with some data from Wyoming and Sask that have the same prevalence rate in general, while neither have had large population declines like they claim should happen since it's always fatal.. maybe it has more to do with increasing tag numbers to reduce a population then CWD killing deer, because I've yet to find anything where guys are finding dead deer from CWD in sask where prevalence rates are bumping 90% like we were able to find from EHD last year..

file:///C:/Users/wyatt/Downloads/Saskatchewan%252BWildlife%252BManagement%252BReport%252B2020%20(3).pdf


https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/con...urveillance-Report-final-updated-041822_1.pdf

 

[wct12]

Do you have hard data that proves you right?

I am using a lot of the same data the game and fish department puts out.. Sask numbers, Wyoming numbers.. 3f2 numbers.. they are using the numbers to push a narrative that we don't want to be come sask with a high prevalence rate due to not banning bait.

Wyoming and Colorado both banned bait.. both have the same prevalence numbers roughly sask has (spot specific might be higher in sask but in general it's very similar state/province wide). Did it take longer to get there? Yes, but even at their prevalence rates they aren't seeing large population declines like one would think from an always fatal disease over and above what Mother Nature does. Sask claims a lot of their population decline over a 5 year average is actually due to harsh winters.. and that population is starting to increase/stay stable again in the province.

You have yet to touch on Jeb and Charlie skirting around questions that were asked of them in the senate hearing.. I would like to hear your explanation on that

 

[bravo]

So the statistics show that doing something might help. They G&F is a fiduciary agency that is bound by the ND Constitution and century code to protect wildlife populations for all residents and visitors. They banned baiting and you didn’t like it so you look past the parts of data that don’t push your narrative, the exact thing you claim they’re doing.

You have yet to touch on Jeb and Charlie skirting around questions that were asked of them in the senate hearing.. I would like to hear your explanation on that

Lol, didn’t realize I had to. You’d have to point me to where you see that. I can’t speak for either as to why they would or did.