Hunting 'Unposted' Private Land

[Kurtr]

Well according to Kurtr, we've GOT to keep this going until we PISS OFF everyone in the state, so here's my contribution to the Butthurt. Hunting is important to me, everyone knows this and as such I make a point to KNOW where the game is and where I can and can not hunt. It's called SCOUTING. In my experience, a large portion of these types of situations occur when hunters just go hunting and when they get to wherever they are going they discover posted signs on everything they want to hunt. Then, after burning a tank of gas driving around and getting more and more frustrated at seeing the signs, they start debating "Is this legally posted" or "We can just jump out, blast a couple, and be gone before anyone notices" or "Well I didn't drive all this way to not shoot something, so F the signs". When the reality is that all it takes is a couple of trips to find locations to hunt, make the effort to locate the landowner, and just ask to hunt. From what I've encountered, 90% of the posted signs are for DEER. Another 5% is for pheasants, and the remainder are just to keep folks out. I have only been turned down to hunt waterfowl a handful of times and those were because family was going to hunt. Late season pheasants (after rifle season) is fairly easy as well. It's the advice of this greybeard, that a couple of cruises to an area and a handshake or two BEFORE, BEFORE, BEFORE the season opens will do wonders for the relationships between hunters and landowners. I am a landowner as well as a hunter so I've been on both sides of the fence on this deal and I can say without reservation that PISS POOR PLANNING on the hunters part causes the majority of these issues. I say this because landowners are landowners 24/7/365. Hunters are hunters three to 5 weekends a year. Bash me if you want, but this is what I've come to know. Carry On!!!

pretty much what i have learned to do. We dont have to piss every one off just gotta be able to beat the dead horses till the bones are dust

 

[8andcounting]

No trespassing means stay off for any reason not just hunting or game retrieval

 

[Duckslayer100]

I was pulled over and cited for a loaded firearm in a vehicle that was moving (buddy was going about 15 over because he's a dumbass). In North Dakota. By a Grand Forks cop who stopped us just inside city limits. We had just finished hunting snow geese in the spring, and I had two in the magazine and NOTHING in the chamber. We were hunting the whole way back to town in the form of scouting for birds to jump (I like jumping snows, so sue me).

Anyway, we tried talking to the cop about the regulations regarding a gun being unloaded if it didn't have anything in the receiver, but he wasn't having it. I was cited and issued a court date.

Got scared and hired a lawyer, but I shouldn't have. He took one look at the regulations book with the rules I was referring to, compared it to the city ordinance, and said he'd get it thrown out.

That was it. Judge threw it out and my record was cleared of all wrongdoing.

So no, one rule doesn't necessarily trump another just because one is G&F and other is City/State.

 

[martinslanding]

lets re-cap for those just joining...

allowed to retrieve game without firearm


not allowed to retrieve game


allowed to retrieve game



not allowed to retrieve game ...

any of these above signs can be placed while hunters in the field

 

[guywhofishes]

I was pulled over and cited for a loaded firearm in a vehicle that was moving (buddy was going about 15 over because he's a dumbass). In North Dakota. By a Grand Forks cop who stopped us just inside city limits. We had just finished hunting snow geese in the spring, and I had two in the magazine and NOTHING in the chamber. We were hunting the whole way back to town in the form of scouting for birds to jump (I like jumping snows, so sue me).

Anyway, we tried talking to the cop about the regulations regarding a gun being unloaded if it didn't have anything in the receiver, but he wasn't having it. I was cited and issued a court date.

Got scared and hired a lawyer, but I shouldn't have. He took one look at the regulations book with the rules I was referring to, compared it to the city ordinance, and said he'd get it thrown out.

That was it. Judge threw it out and my record was cleared of all wrongdoing.

So no, one rule doesn't necessarily trump another just because one is G&F and other is City/State.

I will never mess with the The Slayer again. Geez.

#thuglife

 

[NDSportsman]

Actually... that "asshole" farmer DID put the signs up the evening before. Unfortunately farmers are incredibly busy with harvest and don't always make it to a store to buy and get the signs up right away to make your lives easier. BTW I was on the phone with him when he was supposedly just putting the signs up and he was saying "what the hell, don't they see me" thinking they would come to the pickup and he would ask them to leave, but they never did, hence the game warden showing up. Even after all the trespassing, stealing, littering, destruction of property... he has put up with over the years, he tried getting a hold of the states attorney to drop the charges (realizing it could have just been a mistake that they missed the signs), not sure if he will try again.

Did he try to wave them over? Did he tell the warden he just wanted them to leave? Hard to believe the warden charged them without the owner asking him to.

- - - Updated - - -

lets re-cap for those just joining...

not allowed to retrieve game ...

any of these above signs can be placed while hunters in the field

What about this one?

 

[deleted member]

GST, that decision probably doesn't hinge too much on whether it was posted or not. most states have all land posted without signs. the concepts of open fields and holding things open to the public apply in those states too. its quite common for courts to hold that law enforcement wandering onto your property doesn't constitute a "search" that violates your expectation of privacy.

 

[LAHLAH]

Did he try to wave them over? Did he tell the warden he just wanted them to leave? Hard to believe the warden charged them without the owner asking him to.

I am not sure if he waved them over or what but I can ask him later this evening. I know he was pretty ticked off at that point, assuming they saw the signs and just decided to ignore them, and told the warden he wanted to press charges. However, when he got to his yard that evening there was a nice apologetic letter on his mailbox which explained they were scouting the day before when there were no signs up and did not mean to cause any problems (something like that). At which point he realized it could have just been an innocent mistake and decided to drop the charges (which I do not know what is going on with that now though, all I know is he tried calling Monday)

 

[NDSportsman]

Seems weird he'd be that pissed since it's been unposted this long. You'd think if it meant that much to him he'd have had it posted before any hunting seasons opened.

 

[deleted member]

LAHLAH and OP, what county was this in?

also, 8andcounting and martinslanding, i don't think it matters what kind of sign you use, a person can trespass onto posted property to retrieve a dead or wounded animal without a firearm. its actually an exception to the trespass law. it applies to civil, criminal, G&F trespass and it doesn't matter if its a the game warden, the sheriff or the state's attorney.

 

[Kurtr]

LAHLAH and OP, what county was this in?

also, 8andcounting and martinslanding, i don't think it matters what kind of sign you use, a person can trespass onto posted property to retrieve a dead or wounded animal without a firearm. its actually an exception to the trespass law. it applies to civil, criminal, G&F trespass and it doesn't matter if its a the game warden, the sheriff or the state's attorney.

this is how it is down here minus the signs as it is all posted

 

[martinslanding]

LAHLAH and OP, what county was this in?

also, 8andcounting and martinslanding, i don't think it matters what kind of sign you use, a person can trespass onto posted property to retrieve a dead or wounded animal without a firearm. its actually an exception to the trespass law. it applies to civil, criminal, G&F trespass and it doesn't matter if its a the game warden, the sheriff or the state's attorney.

I feel that if an area is posted with No Trespassing and a landowner does not give you permission to retrieve animal you cannot lawfully attempt to retrieve:


the verbiage "reasonable effort" would hold true...you asked landowner, landowner denied permission

…now in a court setting if this were to come up and law enforcement tried to prosecute you I would make damn sure the conversation with landowner was documented or recorded …

 

[Obi-Wan]

You must have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night

LAHLAH and OP, what county was this in?

also, 8andcounting and martinslanding, i don't think it matters what kind of sign you use, a person can trespass onto posted property to retrieve a dead or wounded animal without a firearm. its actually an exception to the trespass law. it applies to civil, criminal, G&F trespass and it doesn't matter if its a the game warden, the sheriff or the state's attorney.

 

[gst]

GST, that decision probably doesn't hinge too much on whether it was posted or not. most states have all land posted without signs. the concepts of open fields and holding things open to the public apply in those states too. its quite common for courts to hold that law enforcement wandering onto your property doesn't constitute a "search" that violates your expectation of privacy.

I am trying ot figure this one out so I'll share with you what I know from someone directly involved. The complaint was made of animal cruelty by a twit out in Wisconsin based on a text picture from a fired employee. So LE weren;t wandering around, they were actually engaged in searching for evidence of a crime that had been reported. They were not given permission to enter the corrals or the barns but the property was not posted. As a result of this search a couple horses were found that a vet confiscated claiming they were starving. (two other vets contradicted her claims) (said vet has a history with this person regarding her alternative lifestyle and previous billings)

Even though two other vets examined his animals a short time after and said there was no way given the condition they were in could they have been starving, the guy is facing several felony animal cruelty and misdemeanor animal abuse charges that stem partly from this search of the out buildings and corrals.

What /I am wondering if you have a tax accounting business can LE just walk in and start looking around without permission going thru rooms in your business or even adjacent building related to the business without a warrant?

Is so why would out buildings and corrals not visable without entering be any different as part of a ranching business?

I understand the open fields deal but this is a ways from that. Curious about this one.

What are the laws regarding LE entering private property that is posted without seeing a crime taking place?

 

[eyexer]

I am trying ot figure this one out so I'll share with you what I know from someone directly involved. The complaint was made of animal cruelty by a twit out in Wisconsin based on a text picture from a fired employee. So LE weren;t wandering around, they were actually engaged in searching for evidence of a crime that had been reported. They were not given permission to enter the corrals or the barns but the property was not posted. As a result of this search a couple horses were found that a vet confiscated claiming they were starving. (two other vets contradicted her claims) (said vet has a history with this person regarding her alternative lifestyle and previous billings)

Even though two other vets examined his animals a short time after and said there was no way given the condition they were in could they have been starving, the guy is facing several felony animal cruelty and misdemeanor animal abuse charges that stem partly from this search of the out buildings and corrals.

What /I am wondering if you have a tax accounting business can LE just walk in and start looking around without permission going thru rooms in your business or even adjacent building related to the business without a warrant?

Is so why would out buildings and corrals not visable without entering be any different as part of a ranching business?

I understand the open fields deal but this is a ways from that. Curious about this one.

What are the laws regarding LE entering private property that is posted without seeing a crime taking place?

I don't think this activity by law enforcement would ever hold up to search/seizure laws beyond local court.

 

[lunkerslayer]

Eye what you find out

 

[Ericb]

Bullsh't ..... yeh the g&f law ..... but even if warden comes and says yes you can go get deer me as landowner can call sheriff and you will get criminal trespass . The criminal law for trespassing trumps gf guarantee u

Who makes our laws in ND, game and fish and criminal? Hint trespass is not a federal matter.

- - - Updated - - -

I am trying ot figure this one out so I'll share with you what I know from someone directly involved. The complaint was made of animal cruelty by a twit out in Wisconsin based on a text picture from a fired employee. So LE weren;t wandering around, they were actually engaged in searching for evidence of a crime that had been reported. They were not given permission to enter the corrals or the barns but the property was not posted. As a result of this search a couple horses were found that a vet confiscated claiming they were starving. (two other vets contradicted her claims) (said vet has a history with this person regarding her alternative lifestyle and previous billings)

Even though two other vets examined his animals a short time after and said there was no way given the condition they were in could they have been starving, the guy is facing several felony animal cruelty and misdemeanor animal abuse charges that stem partly from this search of the out buildings and corrals.

What /I am wondering if you have a tax accounting business can LE just walk in and start looking around without permission going thru rooms in your business or even adjacent building related to the business without a warrant?

Is so why would out buildings and corrals not visable without entering be any different as part of a ranching business?

I understand the open fields deal but this is a ways from that. Curious about this one.

What are the laws regarding LE entering private property that is posted without seeing a crime taking place?

I believe LE just has to have a reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed. Think dog hitting on drug smell from car.

 

[deleted member]

Offices are different. So, is your home. And I think it's possible this decision gets overturned. I don't know the specifics of what exactly was searched. I suppose I could look. Maybe I will take time tomorrow. But, my first hunch based on what you say happened is the judge got this one wrong. Regardless, my point was i don't think posting or not posting is what this decision hinged on. And I don't think it will play much of a role in appellate review either

 

[Petras]

I'm in no way shape or form an expert, but a quick look at the ND Century code kinda sorta somewhat clarifies things a bit doesn't it? This applies to all forms of posting, not just no hunting, because it is in the century code right?

ND century code states that "Any person may enter upon legally posted land to recover game shot or killed on landwhere the person had a lawful right to hunt."

This is from the ND Century Code. Not a Game and Fish Proclomation. See http://www.legis.nd.gov/cencode/t20-1c01.pdf#nameddest=20p1-01-19

Scroll down to 20.1-01-19. When posted land may be entered.

Maybe I'm wrong... not really worried about it because I do 99% of my hunting on public land and other land that I get permission ahead of time to hunt.

One thing is for sure, there are a lot of different views and opinions on how this can all be interpreted. Perhaps someone should visit the states attorney and get some clarification as they are the ones who would be required to prosecute a criminal trespass charge.

 

[deleted member]

Yes petras. And its not gray.