No licenses for non landowners

[ndlongshot]

Your lobbying against st the one tag system directly affected another sportsmen that had to sit out because of no tag . Something has to give, I honestly believe sportsmen and NDGF have more to lose than there is to gain by overhauling the gratis system. We are in a slump with numbers so we say screw the farmers take away their tags grates instead of share what is already available ? Farmers don't like their rights taken away either and if you think it's tough to get on private land now in some areas that toughness will multiply and spread like leafy spurge to areas where where you still can find private land to hunt. The easiest solution I see is a one tag system and earplugs.

A very valid point. And I would potentially be okay with that. The reality is that we have a limited resource, and there will only be more competition for that resource as the years go by. More people on this planet and in this state.

I guess my point is that if the ONLY solution is one tag, I feel like I shouldnt be forced to choose a weapon. One deer dead is one deer dead. Doesnt matter how I kill it, but I will be content if I get to take to the field however I choose. Tag numbers would have to be adjusted to hunter success and obviously, accurate deer numbers. Can it be done? Sure. Will it be done? Who knows.......

 

[gst]

Once again the discussion seems to go right over your head. We are talking about the opportunity to hunt. It should have absolutely nothing to do with how you choose to make a living or what you spend your money on as to who should have a chance at a tag. When all of the tags in a given unit are being issued as gratis tags we have an issue. That's my point.

I get the point, you are demanding an "opportunity to hunt" in a given unit where you want to hunt. Much like Bernie Sanders supporters are demanding this or that.

If it is merely about the "opportunity to hunt" as you claim, realize two things.

1. You have other units here in the state you can apply in to get that "opportunity to hunt" .

2. if that is not good enough and you are demanding to hunt in one unit then you are demanding more than just that "opportunity to hunt" you claim this is about.

You can also choose to pick up a bow and have a guaranteed over the counter "opportunity to hunt".

But now you are saying that is not a good enough chance at an "opportunity to hunt" because it forces you to choose a weapon.

ND, you seem to have a part of the discussion some such as kdm have mentioned go right over your head. Instead of advocating changes that will naturally decrease access to "opportunities to hunt" why not hold the G&F accountable to better manage the deer herd so there are enough tags avalible?

 

[Account Deleted]

I need to think about this but considering the one tag was weapons/seasons specific. and spread out through the Bow, Gun and muzzy seasons and issue color coded tags accordingly . Spread out the seasons so you don't have that 70,000 gun hunters .

That's basically what we have now but with the exception you could only buy one tag. That is a little different scenario and a better idea. Here's the big problem though. The NDGF could NOT keep doing the rifle draw in July/August. I would be ok with only getting one tag a year, that's usually all I fill anyway. In fact, I bet I average filling 0.5 tags a year. But I would want to know before the eve of archery season if I have a rifle tag. Also, the G&F would need to implement a "buy a point with no tag application" option. Otherwise, bow hunters are pigeon holed into archery hunting forever. The problem I would see on the horizon is point creep but, one problem at a time.

 

[arrowdem]

to be honest i like the MN way to do it, if i spend my $30 and get my bow tag and dont kill anything and rifle season comes up and i decide i want to try my luck with my rifle, im not going to have an issue throwing another $30 at a tag i've spent more than probably 8-10 times than that on gas checking cameras and bow hunting before rifle season comes around so another 30 is a drop in the bucket.. just hunt until you kill one and then you are done, kill it in whatever season you want etc. the problem i see is the guys that want to go after mule deer, if everyone could have one tag and get it wherever they wanted we would have a lot of people heading west to kill mulies i would suspect and that would be a problem.. there probably is no good answer to our problem that we have.. i dont really have an issue with not getting my tag here in 2c cause i can chase deer with my bow here for now but im the kinda guy who if there are 6 tags available im going to get 6 tags because i really enjoy being out there and i enjoy pulling the trigger back when they had all the extra doe tags i would donate 2-3 of the deer i killed to other people that needed the extra meat and i donated at least 1 deer every year to the sportsmans club in town for their game feed, and the land i was taking the does on had a terrible buck to doe ratio, so if i can kill one ill kill one if i can kill ten im gonna try to kill ten..

 

[deleted_account]

MN deer hunting is poopy

 

[NDSportsman]

I get the point, you are demanding an "opportunity to hunt" in a given unit where you want to hunt. Much like Bernie Sanders supporters are demanding this or that.

If it is merely about the "opportunity to hunt" as you claim, realize two things.

1. You have other units here in the state you can apply in to get that "opportunity to hunt" .

2. if that is not good enough and you are demanding to hunt in one unit then you are demanding more than just that "opportunity to hunt" you claim this is about.

You can also choose to pick up a bow and have a guaranteed over the counter "opportunity to hunt".

But now you are saying that is not a good enough chance at an "opportunity to hunt" because it forces you to choose a weapon.

ND, you seem to have a part of the discussion some such as kdm have mentioned go right over your head. Instead of advocating changes that will naturally decrease access to "opportunities to hunt" why not hold the G&F accountable to better manage the deer herd so there are enough tags avalible?

And then you would complain about too many deer. It's always something.

The fact is with the current habitat situation the numbers are going to be like this for the foreseeable future. Why should only landowners be allowed the opportunity at a tag in a certain unit? The kid working at the local grocery store and the guy delivering propane should have an opportunity to apply for a tag too. I don't know of any units that are completely void of public land.

So how would you change the current system to allow for at least the opportunity at a tag for a non landowner in a unit that is currently going to all gratis?

 

[Davy Crockett]

watch how many twins and trips hit the ground this spring if we get out of this winter without a big snowstorm. I don't know what numbers around the state are but I don't see the numbers way down up here so they can bounce back fast here , No idea if it's that way statewide. I just don't see taking farmers gratis away being the best decision in the long run, It isn't going to magically produce a bunch of extra license because those that get gratis now will apply for the lottery if you take away the gratis. Better odds for non land owners yes but odds are that you will see more land posted long after the numbers bounce back because of it in my opinion.

 

[Account Deleted]

to be honest i like the MN way to do it, if i spend my $30 and get my bow tag and dont kill anything and rifle season comes up and i decide i want to try my luck with my rifle, im not going to have an issue throwing another $30 at a tag i've spent more than probably 8-10 times than that on gas checking cameras and bow hunting before rifle season comes around so another 30 is a drop in the bucket.. just hunt until you kill one and then you are done, kill it in whatever season you want etc. the problem i see is the guys that want to go after mule deer, if everyone could have one tag and get it wherever they wanted we would have a lot of people heading west to kill mulies i would suspect and that would be a problem.. there probably is no good answer to our problem that we have.. i dont really have an issue with not getting my tag here in 2c cause i can chase deer with my bow here for now but im the kinda guy who if there are 6 tags available im going to get 6 tags because i really enjoy being out there and i enjoy pulling the trigger back when they had all the extra doe tags i would donate 2-3 of the deer i killed to other people that needed the extra meat and i donated at least 1 deer every year to the sportsmans club in town for their game feed, and the land i was taking the does on had a terrible buck to doe ratio, so if i can kill one ill kill one if i can kill ten im gonna try to kill ten..

Ideally, that's not a bad idea, but MN has a f-ton more deer than we do. In 2014, they issued 600,000+ tags with 140,000 deer harvested. I don't think ND could handle that sort of free for all.

 

[arrowdem]

Ideally, that's not a bad idea, but MN has a f-ton more deer than we do. In 2014, they issued 600,000+ tags with 140,000 deer harvested. I don't think ND could handle that sort of free for all.

ya it would for sure need some tweeking, like a lottery for how many buck tags and then the doe tags if you didnt get a buck tag or something i dont know exactly how it would have to be structured, because i do hear alot of that from the guys on the other side of the river is that they cant get on mature bucks because everyone shoots the first thing with horns cause they have a buck tag, which is really bad for the herd, and even if not everyone got a tag and you had to only allow so many tags, the chances of getting a tag are much better that is for sure!

 

[gst]

ND so now then it is not just about the "opportunity to hunt" it is about the opportunity to hunt where YOU want to.

So should I now demand the "opportunity to hunt" over with my buddy on his land with my gratis tag?

ND, I have put up with literally hundreds of deer in our yard for years. I don;t mind a couple hundred or even three hundred. My wife and daughter like finding sheds with us and the boys and I are avid hunters so hey I will deal with the issues that come with deer. That is why I am not calling the G&F to deal with them for me.

We try to get people in that have doe tags to help manage numbers. Had 8 different people shoot does here this fall. The year they had the doe season after rifle season we had people come in and shot dozens of deer out of the yard.

When the G&F are not smart enough to figure out 2 feet of snow in rifle season impacts harvest numbers and assumes it is reduced population numbers to start with and so they cut the tags for next year and this happens two years in a row and suddenly the population explodes because there are far more deer out there than they knew about so they have ot have a doe only season after rifle season and give up unlimited tags, yeah there is too many deer. And at that point they can not get a handle on this snowball that turned into an avalanche until Ma Nature steps in and does it for them. And the pendelum swings too far and deer numbers are down

And then people like yourself want to limit those people that own the lands these deer are on all year which will only limit your "opportunity to hunt" down the road.

Remember the G&F are limiting tags to get deer numbers back up. Deer numbers go back up impacts to landowners go back up. And the cycle continues until Ma Nature steps in again.

Until a means to better manage these numbers as best as we can happens you are merely putting that band aid over the outside of the wound and ignoring what is going on inside. And in doing so picking a fight to boot that will not help in the long run.

 

[Lycanthrope]

The problem even if they do allow this 640 land owners can still keep their land closed to public hunting, which is exactly what has been going on in other outdoor hunting opportunities (waterfowl, game birds, or etc.) Now minnesota has it where you can buy so many acres of land for your family to hunt for that year exclusively but still not opening to non land owners.

That doesnt really answer my question.

 

[NDSportsman]

So you are blaming the GNF for not being able to predict the winter? Blaming the GNF for the habitat destruction that has taken place the past 5-6 years? Blaming a guy who doesn't own any land but works just as hard as you for wanting a chance at a deer tag near his home to hunt a piece of public ground that all of us pay for? The bottom line is landowners should not get every tag for a given unit. You wouldn't like it if all the tags went to only city folk would you? Didn't think so.

 

[SDMF]

It has been three years since I sent in for a general draw license so I forgot they increased the rates.

It's OK, Bernie will make sure those of you with your hand out for free stuff will continue to get it. They can raise the price 2-3 more times and you'll never have to know about/remember those increases either.

The above being serious tongue in cheek, you can see how nobody likes that.

 

[arrowdem]

So you are blaming the GNF for not being able to predict the winter? Blaming the GNF for the habitat destruction that has taken place the past 5-6 years? Blaming a guy who doesn't own any land but works just as hard as you for wanting a chance at a deer tag near his home to hunt a piece of public ground that all of us pay for? The bottom line is landowners should not get every tag for a given unit. You wouldn't like it if all the tags went to only city folk would you? Didn't think so.

even if you split the deer tags 50/50 in these units that are having issues with not enough nonlandowner tags the land owners i would guess would still have pretty darn good odds of drawing a tag maybe not every year but at least every other year? im sure some would be against that but that doesnt seem like such a bad deal to me? especially when you see the other side of the spectrum of not drawing to 4-5-6 years?...

 

[gst]

So you are blaming the GNF for not being able to predict the winter? Blaming the GNF for the habitat destruction that has taken place the past 5-6 years? Blaming a guy who doesn't own any land but works just as hard as you for wanting a chance at a deer tag near his home to hunt a piece of public ground that all of us pay for? The bottom line is landowners should not get every tag for a given unit. You wouldn't like it if all the tags went to only city folk would you? Didn't think so.

Ah, at least you admitted it is not about the "opportunity to hunt" but what you demand.

Nice try, but no I ma not blaiming the G&F for not predicting the weather. I sat with Randy Kriel at the advisor meeting when it was in Bowbells years ago. The "management" plan they had was so flawed anyone but them could have seen right through what was going to happen. And what he was told was going ot happened did.

ND, please answer one question, how can one manage how many deer are in a unit (regardless of weather or habitat) if one does not have a good idea of how many deer are in a unit?

You avoided answering the question about deer feeding with cattle when those bales come out of your hay yard, and the impact that could have, but try answering this one if you would.

- - - Updated - - -

It's OK, Bernie will make sure those of you with your hand out for free stuff will continue to get it. They can raise the price 2-3 more times and you'll never have to know about/remember those increases either.

The above being serious tongue in cheek, you can see how nobody likes that.

I am not voting for Bernie nor do I want "free stuff" from the govt. The analogy was made only to show the the willingness of people who are likely fairly conservative to accept a somewhat socialist position sometimes.

Life isn;t perfect nor "fair".

the bottom line is the G&F know their job of gaining access to private lands ot manage deer numbers thru harvest will be much harder if what some want to do with gratis tags here would happen.

Most sportsmen know access would be much harder if what a few want happened.

 

[deleted member]

Espringers, what a whiney little bastard you have become.

LOL. holy shit! are you fucking kidding me? hello mr. pot. :;:howdy i'm mr. kettle. no need to tell me i'm black. btw, have you looked in the mirror lately? anytime somebody says anything that you remotely disagree with, you have a 1000 word response and turn these threads into a veritable shitshow of whining.

anyway... on the subject at hand. there are certainly a couple sides to this. and even GST has valid points related to landowner hardships and deer. they definitely deserve their chance at a gratis. but, to pretend like the question that has been posed by at least a couple on here concerning a unit or two where non landowners have virtually a zero percent chance of drawing a tag has no merit is the epitome of being closed minded. 2E must be one of the top three biggest units in the state. in the last 2 years, you had virtually no chance of drawing a tag if you didn't have 160 acres. last year, your chance was zero. in fact, to be fair, even landowners had a very poor shot at a gratis. but, i don't think that means questioning whether its right that none were available for non landowners makes you anti landowner.

and the idea that cutting gratis tags will mean less open land doesn't always hold merit. it just depends on the landowners you are dealing with. of those that hunt, there are about four families that i would consider myself closest to in regards to land ownership. when nobody in those families draws a gratis tag or a regular tag, it actually tends to lead to more land to hunt for the regular joes cause they don't bother posting it cause they won't be hunting. that doesn't usually affect me. cause they would likely let me hunt anyway if i asked. but, the point is, not all landowners get all spiteful and post their land if they don't get a tag. for some, its just the opposite. they have a way of seeing things from more than one perspective. strange folk they are. :;:huh

also, how about the rest of us landowners who don't actually have 160? i've got 25 acres. they eat my trees. they eat my garden. and i could regularly shoot one off my back steps. but, i don't deserve a chance at a tag cause i don't make my living off my parcel? before you answer... no i don't think i do deserve gratis tag. but, it would be nice to have a chance at a tag... even if it 0.01%. if i don't draw i just buy a res tag or a bow tag or go pick up an extra doe tag or all of the above. so, personally, it makes very little difference. but, the narrative is just to show there are lots of varying viewpoints on this subject that are worth considering.

 

[SDMF]

I am not voting for Bernie nor do I want "free stuff" from the govt. The analogy was made only to show the the willingness of people who are likely fairly conservative to accept a somewhat socialist position sometimes.

Right, like when you bend your hat brim to get into the mailbox for your free guaranteed gratis tag.

See how that works for you just as well as the folks you like to pin that label on?

 

[NDSportsman]

Ah, at least you admitted it is not about the "opportunity to hunt" but what you demand. No different then you "demanding" a gratis tag right?

Nice try, but no I ma not blaiming the G&F for not predicting the weather. I sat with Randy Kriel at the advisor meeting when it was in Bowbells years ago. The "management" plan they had was so flawed anyone but them could have seen right through what was going to happen. And what he was told was going ot happened did.

ND, please answer one question, how can one manage how many deer are in a unit it one does not have a good idea of how many deer are in a unit? I've never disagreed with that and have gone around with them myself on it. Not sure what that has to do with the topic of landowners taking all of the available opportunities in a given unit via gratis.

- - - Updated - - -



I am not voting for Bernie nor do I want "free stuff" from the govt. The analogy was made only to show the the willingness of people who are likely fairly conservative to accept a somewhat socialist position sometimes.

Life isn;t perfect nor "fair".

the bottom line is the G&F know their job of gaining access to private lands ot manage deer numbers thru harvest will be much harder if what some want to do with gratis tags here would happen.

Most sportsmen know access would be much harder if what some want happened. Access can't get much harder and the old "more land will be posted" is complete bunk because 99% of it already is posted.

.

 

[KDM]

So you are blaming the GNF for not being able to predict the winter? Blaming the GNF for the habitat destruction that has taken place the past 5-6 years? Blaming a guy who doesn't own any land but works just as hard as you for wanting a chance at a deer tag near his home to hunt a piece of public ground that all of us pay for? The bottom line is landowners should not get every tag for a given unit. You wouldn't like it if all the tags went to only city folk would you? Didn't think so.

I don't think he is blaming the G&F, but I AM for not making the most popular big game animal on the North American Continent and in North Dakota a bigger priority for sound scientific management. The landowners have very little to do with determining tag numbers so why is it so common to pound on THEM when people don't get a deer tag?? Pound on the people that SHOULD BE ABLE TO SHOW YOU why you didn't get a tag. It would be so simple to post the survey data from each unit from each year on their webpage and stop all the bickering between interested parties from all sides of this issue. NUMBERS DON"T LIE!!!! Habitat Destruction, Bad Winters, EHD Outbreaks, Hunting, and every other factor impacting white tail deer numbers would be measurable and thus predictable. Low numbers of deer equal low tags and vice versa. If deer numbers were so low in my unit that only the landowners will get tags and the G&F could show me the data supporting that fact, I would fully support suspending the deer hunting seasons in my unit. ALL HUNTING SEASONS. I'm beginning to think the G&F is purposely NOT trying to find out how many deer there are in each unit as then the politics of tag numbers would be eliminated and the infighting between factions could be moderated. Look what's going on right here on NDA. We are bickering among ourselves and the anti's must be giggling with glee. Properly and politely place frustration and displeasure upon those that can affect a change IMO is a better plan. In this case, the NDGF. Punching the cab driver because you got thrown out of a bar will probably NOT get you safely home.

 

[Kentucky Windage]

I still like my idea......someone should shoot holes in it if they disagree

- - - Updated - - -

Post #7. Check it out.

- - - Updated - - -

If not, a couple hundred more posts and we should have his issue solved. Good job NDA men. Proven results every time.

- - - Updated - - -

We need an outsider perspective though. Perhaps we could get a few "Sconi" opinions so we are considering this issue from all angles.