Badlands mule deer

[Bowhunter_24]

 

[shorthairsrus]

reduce the number of tags imo --- although last year that was the most deer i had seen for a long time. Had em standing by us at 12pm when we began to walk - had to shoo away the does like cattle.

Go with a 2 week season Gun ------ limit the bow hunters.

 

[Obi-Wan]

You guys are looking at it wrong I think the future looks bright with the Muley population. The number of does and fawns looked good in the area's I hunted as did the amount of bucks. Granted I did not find any bucks above the 150 range but I did see at least 6 bucks and as many as 10 per day in the 9 days I hunted. The last time I hunted out West was in 2011 and I think the deer numbers were similar to then

How old does a buck need to be to get into that 170-180 class?

What year did the muley population bottom out?

[h=1]Spring Mule Deer Survey Complete[/h]Mon, 04/24/2017


The North Dakota Game and Fish Department completed its annual spring mule deer survey in April, and results indicate western North Dakota’s mule deer population has increased 16 percent from last year.
Biologists counted 3,349 mule deer in 306.3 square miles during this year’s survey. Overall mule deer density in the badlands was 10.9 deer per square mile, which is up from 9.4 deer per square mile in 2016.
Big game management supervisor Bruce Stillings said mule deer in the badlands have recovered nicely following the winters of 2009-11, which led to record low fawn production and a population index low of 4.6 mule deer per square mile in 2012.
“The population recovery is due to no antlerless harvest for four years combined with milder winter conditions during 2012-16, which led to good fawn production since 2013,” Stillings said. “However, the long-term health of the population will depend on maintaining high quality habitat.”
The 2017 survey results show that hunting opportunities, according to Stillings, can be increased in all badlands units except 4A, which experienced more severe winter conditions and a slight decline in mule deer numbers.
The spring mule deer survey is used to assess mule deer abundance in the badlands. It is conducted after the snow has melted and before the trees begin to leaf out, providing the best conditions for aerial observation of deer. Biologists have completed aerial surveys of the same 24 study areas since the 1950s.

 

[Kurtr]

From what I have seen they need 5 years to start getting big they take longer than white tails.

 

[Enslow]

Obi wan we agree haha the future is bright!

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Kurt great buck in your pic. That’s a dandy!!!!!!

 

[luvcatchingbass]

I don't hunt out west and have never chased muley's yet, maybe one day. All I have to say is any thread like this the whole opinion on rifle during the rut is bad, trust me the rut has pretty much been the main reason for my success over the years. So let's get rifle out of the main predictable rut and start it after Thanksgiving for 2 weeks take a week or two off the give the muzzle guys 1-2 weeks then all seasons closed, oh and while at it leave the start of bow but shut it down 2 weeks before rifle give them the 2 weeks between gun seasons then done and when muzzy closes so does all deer seasons. This goes for the whole state:;:stirthepot

 

[BDub]

I've been hunting the same area for the last 35 years. Rarely see any big Muley bucks. 140 to 155 at best. This fall a friend arrowed a 192 typical on the same ranch. Lucky but he did do lots of scouting. Close to an oil well.

 

[Obi-Wan]

I don't hunt out west and have never chased muley's yet, maybe one day. All I have to say is any thread like this the whole opinion on rifle during the rut is bad, trust me the rut has pretty much been the main reason for my success over the years. So let's get rifle out of the main predictable rut and start it after Thanksgiving for 2 weeks take a week or two off the give the muzzle guys 1-2 weeks then all seasons closed, oh and while at it leave the start of bow but shut it down 2 weeks before rifle give them the 2 weeks between gun seasons then done and when muzzy closes so does all deer seasons. This goes for the whole state:;:stirthepot

so you would still allow bow hunting during the rut ?

What biological reason would there be to manage the deer herd for trophy deer?

 

[8andcounting]

Why in the hell do they sell mule doe tags is what I want to know . Shouldn't be a mule deer shot in ND . Period

 

[luvcatchingbass]

so you would still allow bow hunting during the rut ?

What biological reason would there be to manage the deer herd for trophy deer?

No body should get to hunt during the rut, to make it easy could just as well stop bow season at the end of Oct all together and not open a gun season till December 1 and just split the month between rifle and muzzy and call it good. If you read I stated closing bow 2 weeks prior to rifle, sure you might still bow hunt on the edge of the rut but not smack dab in the middle.
Shorten all the seasons give out more tags to help appease the masses and sit back and watch the complete $#!+ show that would happen. My point was those that say no rifle during the rut but mention bow and sure don't ever offer a schedule solution, and I would think they are much much smarter than my pee brain

 

[CutEm]

I truly feel deer numbers are great in the badlands right now and with another mild winter will be very good. It will just take a couple more years to get the big bucks back.

I think not shooting doe for a number of years was really hard on mature bucks. As anyone knows muledeer doe are very tolerant of human presence. When you don't harass them for 4-5 years they become even more tolerant and when the rut is going it makes mature bucks that more susceptible. Good for population bad for mature deer.

I also think youth tags take there toll. It used to be about a kid going out and getting his first deer, didn't matter what it was just the experience. Now its the dads dream hunt using the kid as the trigger man.

Also one has to consider with the increased mule deer buck harvest that the area of muledeer is expanding. I see muledeer basically 40 miles east of the river up through Minot and west to Montana. Not all of those bucks are coming from the badlands.

 

[PrairieGhost]

Another thing to keep in mind is that it's the Game and Fish job to provide maximum recreation for the maximum number of people. For every trophy hunter out there we will find ten people who simply want a deer. Fighting that will simply tick of the majority of people. It's why we have a long bow season, a muzzy season, and a long rifle season. We still have a chance at a nice buck, but our percentages go down. I like big bucks myself, but advocating trophy management requires fewer hunters and our numbers are already going down. It wouldn't be a problem in a sane world, but the animal rights people are politically savvy and are waiting for weakened hunter influence. I kind of go along with if it isn't broke don't fix it.

 

[SDMF]

Little bit of Capt'n obvious here. Let's say that 180" and greater is a "Trophy" Mule Deer in ND. There are 2 constants you absolutely HAVE TO HAVE.

1. The willingness to not fill your tag at all.

2. Time

Neither of the above will guarantee you a big deer, Tim S documented this well regarding his brother's efforts this fall. That said, with the exception of dumb-luck (which happens too) you're going to need the above to get true "trophies", especially if you're able to complete the task consistently.

 

[Tim Sandstrom]

I sorta stand with one foot on each of the line here. Mentioned, I did see pretty much every doe with fawns. A couple who over achieved with trips. But overall, I am not sure I could equate out the 16 percent increase. I don't fly a plane obviously, I can only go by what is in the road ditches too and from hunting locations and what I see with optics near and afar. We normally go in the dark, work the country until the shadows start to deplete and then go back to camp to rest a couple hours. Then try to be back out in the evening in time to watch the shadows begin casting from the shifting sun and come out in the dark. Depending if working creek areas down low (when the damn wind is blowing) or working ridgelines not to silhouette one's self too much we see 360 degree 1 ish miles in all directions. We don't move too fast when in seek mode so its lots of eyes stuck in the glass. I'd say on most walks we'd each lay eyes on 15-20 deer. Low side is 3-5. High side is over 20. I'll be curious how the surveys come back (was survey sent with every mule deer hunter...or at least my brother got on) asking for hunters to give a more detailed breakdown of the deer they saw in the field. Granted, doing the ole road hunt a guy can probably see over 15-20 deer because a lot of times, covering much more ground than a morning or evening stroll.

I get a bit nervous with the aerial surveys because unsure how "localized" they get with deer numbers. While they stated 4a required some attention units 4c and 4b are huge and sometimes, I wonder if they shouldn't break down those units a bit more. Maybe they do, I don't know, they don't do a terrific job of explaining their deer counting numbers and I haven't asked in great detail.

Plan to do that at advisory meetings. Be nice piece to add as a video review thing-a-ma-bob the do weekly or monthly.

You guys are looking at it wrong I think the future looks bright with the Muley population. The number of does and fawns looked good in the area's I hunted as did the amount of bucks. Granted I did not find any bucks above the 150 range but I did see at least 6 bucks and as many as 10 per day in the 9 days I hunted. The last time I hunted out West was in 2011 and I think the deer numbers were similar to then

How old does a buck need to be to get into that 170-180 class?

What year did the muley population bottom out?

Spring Mule Deer Survey Complete

Mon, 04/24/2017


The North Dakota Game and Fish Department completed its annual spring mule deer survey in April, and results indicate western North Dakota’s mule deer population has increased 16 percent from last year.
Biologists counted 3,349 mule deer in 306.3 square miles during this year’s survey. Overall mule deer density in the badlands was 10.9 deer per square mile, which is up from 9.4 deer per square mile in 2016.
Big game management supervisor Bruce Stillings said mule deer in the badlands have recovered nicely following the winters of 2009-11, which led to record low fawn production and a population index low of 4.6 mule deer per square mile in 2012.
“The population recovery is due to no antlerless harvest for four years combined with milder winter conditions during 2012-16, which led to good fawn production since 2013,” Stillings said. “However, the long-term health of the population will depend on maintaining high quality habitat.”
The 2017 survey results show that hunting opportunities, according to Stillings, can be increased in all badlands units except 4A, which experienced more severe winter conditions and a slight decline in mule deer numbers.
The spring mule deer survey is used to assess mule deer abundance in the badlands. It is conducted after the snow has melted and before the trees begin to leaf out, providing the best conditions for aerial observation of deer. Biologists have completed aerial surveys of the same 24 study areas since the 1950s.

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I have never wanted someone to receive dumb luck soooo bad. Because, yes, it does require luck. Some of it is dumb luck but I also think luck favors the prepared mind. The poor fella coulda used a blast of dumb luck just to make him fend off selling his backpacking gear and getting an S-10 (smooth ride with good gas mileage) with fuel tank in back, a topper to sleep in the pickup box and turning into strictly a road warrior.

Little bit of Capt'n obvious here. Let's say that 180" and greater is a "Trophy" Mule Deer in ND. There are 2 constants you absolutely HAVE TO HAVE.

1. The willingness to not fill your tag at all.

2. Time

Neither of the above will guarantee you a big deer, Tim S documented this well regarding his brother's efforts this fall. That said, with the exception of dumb-luck (which happens too) you're going to need the above to get true "trophies", especially if you're able to complete the task consistently.

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I think we could come up with some nice compromises. Reduce rifle time in the rut, perhaps convince forest service to enforce or put up signage to help so-called roadless areas actually be true roadless areas, maybe we start looking at curbing archery a bit in certain ways (limited entry or permit to badlands units, do we reduce NRs, do we raise NR tag prices, one buck only, other? I mean, if I have to wait 6-9 years to draw a Badlands tag the way it is, why not expand it a bit so we balance opportunity with some chances at age class. Obviously, cannot fend of any wicked rath of Mother Nature but I'd like the conversation to happen anyway.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it's the Game and Fish job to provide maximum recreation for the maximum number of people. For every trophy hunter out there we will find ten people who simply want a deer. Fighting that will simply tick of the majority of people. It's why we have a long bow season, a muzzy season, and a long rifle season. We still have a chance at a nice buck, but our percentages go down. I like big bucks myself, but advocating trophy management requires fewer hunters and our numbers are already going down. It wouldn't be a problem in a sane world, but the animal rights people are politically savvy and are waiting for weakened hunter influence. I kind of go along with if it isn't broke don't fix it.

 

[Allen]

I truly feel deer numbers are great in the badlands right now and with another mild winter will be very good. It will just take a couple more years to get the big bucks back.

I think not shooting doe for a number of years was really hard on mature bucks. As anyone knows muledeer doe are very tolerant of human presence. When you don't harass them for 4-5 years they become even more tolerant and when the rut is going it makes mature bucks that more susceptible. Good for population bad for mature deer.

I also think youth tags take there toll. It used to be about a kid going out and getting his first deer, didn't matter what it was just the experience. Now its the dads dream hunt using the kid as the trigger man.

Also one has to consider with the increased mule deer buck harvest that the area of muledeer is expanding. I see muledeer basically 40 miles east of the river up through Minot and west to Montana. Not all of those bucks are coming from the badlands.

The first tags now come at age 11 and for ages 11-13 it's doe only. Hence, there are no 11 year olds being the triggerman for dad's dream muley buck hunt in ND. Not legally, anyway.

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Just curious, but what states do not allow the hunting of deer during the rut?

 

[Bfishn]

The problem with rifle hunting after the rut is that the bucks are worn down from the rut, now your going to hunt them for another 2 weeks after the rut and wear them down even more right as winter is setting in?? Good luck with that. Most states that hunt after rut don't have the winters and lack of cover that we have. Around here we have to give them somewhat of a chance to recover after the rut so they can make it through winter, chasing them around for another few weeks might have serious unintended consequences.

 

[TFX 186]

I agree with Bfishn.
I have shot some bucks with my bow later season after the rut, and they were nothing but skin and bones. They really get run down and I would suppose it has to do with weather during the rut also. I've watched the rutting bucks over the years and they come around the bait mostly just to check out the does a run them around. They don't stand still for very long when they come in and hardly ever stop long enough to eat. After the rut winds down, they will drop by for some much needed food.
Fish On!

 

[Brian Renville]

In a sort of deer gentrification move over the last 20 years a sizeable percentage of the mulie population has moved full time within the limits of Watford City.

 

[pluckem]

Another thing to keep in mind is that it's the Game and Fish job to provide maximum recreation for the maximum number of people. For every trophy hunter out there we will find ten people who simply want a deer.

I share some agreement in this, but I do believe this has changed in the last 5 years and it doesn't really hold true anymore with the topic of badlands mule deer.

Why would a meat hunter apply for mule deer buck in the badlands and only draw a tag every 4-8 years? If you are just after any deer then apply for a tag that's easier to obtain.

There is also a large amount of people who were drawing a whitetail buck tag every year to every other year at some unit further east and this was enough to keep them doing that. Now that those whitetail buck tags take 2-4 years to draw and their "hunting party" dissolved a bit they are now applying for mule deer out west. When you draw a tag that takes 4-8 years, there is a level of pressure to capitalize on that opportunity. Fair or not, expectations increase. Guys take weeks off of work because they built it up for years. They know they wont have a tag in their pocket the following years so use it now. They make an extra trip or two scouting because "this is the year". They will have time to pheasant hunt, walleye fish, goose hunt.. etc. in the next few years while they wait for the next tag.

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I truly feel deer numbers are great in the badlands right now and with another mild winter will be very good. It will just take a couple more years to get the big bucks back.

I have seen this mentioned a few times on this thread. The population is great, in a couple years we will have bigger bucks. This could be true, im no expert in the matter.

However I do have some experience hunting mule deer just west of the border in MT. I have spoken with a fair amount of their biologists and wardens from many different areas in the eastern half of the state.

The message is similar from all of them... They don't manage for trophies, they manage for opportunity. JUST LIKE NDGF.
They have very few mule deer bucks reach 5 years of age. A guy can always get lucky or find a secret (at least for year or two) spot where he might find and shoot a 170"+ buck. However for the most part, year in and year out the "trophy hunters" in MT are looking for those 3.5 to 4.5 year old bucks that will score around the 150-160" mark. Sound familiar to the reports in this thread?

Keep in mind their mule deer populations right now are doing great. Most areas are well above the long term averages. However its no secret to the MT biologists that they don't get many 5+ yo bucks in the age structure of the population. The opportunity is so great out there with tag #s, long archery season, and a 5 week rifle season during the rut that the bucks just don't make it.


So given all the potential reasons for the decline of the 170"+ deer listed in this thread. I think you can just look at MT as an example that it doesn't matter what you have for deer numbers or a healthy population at some point the buck harvest can become great enough that you just wont have many 5+ yo bucks.
Are we there yet? I have no idea, but it is a likely possibility.

 

[shorthairsrus]

I share some agreement in this, but I do believe this has changed in the last 5 years and it doesn't really hold true anymore with the topic of badlands mule deer.

Why would a meat hunter apply for mule deer buck in the badlands and only draw a tag every 4-8 years? If you are just after any deer then apply for a tag that's easier to obtain.

There is also a large amount of people who were drawing a whitetail buck tag every year to every other year at some unit further east and this was enough to keep them doing that. Now that those whitetail buck tags take 2-4 years to draw and their "hunting party" dissolved a bit they are now applying for mule deer out west. When you draw a tag that takes 4-8 years, there is a level of pressure to capitalize on that opportunity. Fair or not, expectations increase. Guys take weeks off of work because they built it up for years. They know they wont have a tag in their pocket the following years so use it now. They make an extra trip or two scouting because "this is the year". They will have time to pheasant hunt, walleye fish, goose hunt.. etc. in the next few years while they wait for the next tag.

I hunted muleys solid from the time i was 14 until the late 90s -- the numbers of muleys declined (not because of me) but from over harvest -- while the white tails increased in population. I dont think ND ever was on the list of BIG muleys. Why because they have always given out a max of tags. Once Randy Kreil retired they stopped selling tags; hence last year -- that was the most deer i had seen out that way in a long time. My daughter drew a youth tag and she went 7 years ago -- (and no she did not get a big deer - eater) (nor was she the trigger man) (she was the shooter, gutter and cut em and both of us (along with the rest of the family) were "Eaters"). Anyway the amount of deer increased imo. How was it when i used to hunt back in the 70s,80s and 90s -- depended on the year. Plus the rack size bounced around in different areas.

What i see now vs the 70s -90s -- a big increase in pressure from bow hunters, a big decrease in pressure from gun hunters (most of which are two lazy to walk) that and less tags. It was actually pleasant hunting some of our old spots we didnt see a person. Youth hunt as i stated earlier is that a factor -- they limit the tags. IMO i dont think so. What would i do different - eliminate the doe tags on the second lottery -- all they are dragging in is the parties that have a buck. They never had that second drawing back in the day. Again another Randy Kreil $$$$$ money maker implementation.

Tim says 7 years to draw a tag --- I suppose now that you cant send in that benjamin due to online applications only --- just kidding

With regards to the "meat" hunter. Actually right now the big guy upstairs is probably staring down at that thread response not happy. The badlands - most of the hunt imo is the scenery - the experience --- last is the horns. Sorry maybe that makes me a meat hunter --although the older i get the more get the wave by -- i need the perfect shot/perfect spot/then horns