Property Tax Credit

[Allen]

Soo $122 million for a flood project.....wasn't the dam wide open a few years ago and where this affects didn't get flooded? So is this project for if the dam completely breaks? Trying to figure out why this is all needed? It's been how long since kirkwood mall area flooded etc..anybody have info on this and the reason for it? Just trying to figure it out..

No, Garrrison Dam was not "wide open" in 2011. It ended up needing to release around 155,000 cfs in early June.

Garrison Dam was built to safely pass right around 899,000 cfs, so it was passing less than 20% of its rated discharge.

Recent dam safety studies now put the maximum flood (roughly a 1,000 yr event) at right around 1.2 million cfs. In the coming years, the dam will be modified to construct a larger capacity spillway in order to bring it back to the standard of needing to pass a 1,000 yr flood.

Note, this is happening at many dams across the country. These dams were built in the 1940-1960s with only 30-50 years worth of meteorologic and hydrologic data. There's now 90-100+ years of data and a good share of dams no longer provide the protection originally intended.

I don't know offhand to what extent (cfs) these new flood protections will buy in the way of flow in the river, but I am going to hazard a guess that there's no way anyone will pay what it would take to prevent flood damages from occurring at 1.2 million cfs.

Here's the existing stage-rating curve for Bismarck: https://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwisweb/get_ratings?site_no=06342500&file_type=exsa
It only goes up to 450,000 cfs at a stage of 27.0 ft, so one would have to extrapolate quite a bit to estimate how high the water would be in south Bismarck at 1.2 million cfs.

The flood of 1952 which had an estimated flow of 500,000 cfs reached a stage of 27.90 ft, but that's only #4 on the National Weather Service's ranking of worst floods in the Bismarck area. The 1881 flood reached 31.60 ft. If you would like to translate that into elevation above MSL, add 1619.46 ft and then compare it to your home's base elevation. This would be in the NAVD-88 vertical datum. You will want to add about a 1.25 ft for every river mile you are north of Steamboat Park, and subtract the same for every river mile you are below it to account for slope of the river.

Obviously, the risk of such floods in any given year are something around 0.1%, but it surely isn't 0.00000 and the consequences are quite apocalyptic.

 

[NDSportsman]

Lets looks at property taxes, roughly 50% go to school systems and the rest go to public safety(fire,law enforcement and ems), public works(road maintenance, water departments, etc, and community services(libraries, parks, etc). I will gladly pay property taxes knowing that is what they are going to. I live in a rural community and we are extremely dependent on property taxes. In these tight knit rural communities the governmental bodies are usually ran by well known, upstanding community members that truly want what best for the community and they use property taxes for the good of the community. Big cities obviously are not this way, the bigger the city the more corrupt it becomes, in my opinion.

Lets say measure 4 passes and now there isn't property taxes and its up to the state to find and delegate funds accordingly. They aren't going to find this money out of thin air, so a new tax of some sort will be implemented. After the new tax is implemented the state will have the needed funds. How is this new tax going to be assessed? Do you people really trust the state government to allocate those funds properly? Rural communities are going to suffer tremendously. The state will give the vast majority of the funds to the big cities and the rural communities will be left to scavenge the remains.

I understand the argument of "You don't truly own your property if there are property taxes". But until there is a bill that truly defines how the state is going to find the funds needed and how they will be allocated, voting yes on measure 4 is pure selfishness. You people aren't looking at the big picture implications if this bill passes, all you're thinking about is the short term extra dollars in your pocket.

This is my biggest issue with our property tax system. I'll gladly pay my fair share for those other services, which we already do anyway thru multiple other taxes such as fuel and sales taxes. But I should never have to worry about losing my home to send somebody elses kids to school! Schools used to last 50-100 years, now these ass clowns think their kiddos need a new fucking school every 10-20. The school spending has gotten completely out of control and 90% of it is going to fund sports shit like new athletic facilities. Totally unnecessary expenses placed on the backs of tax payers! These fucking school boards think they have an unlimited check book because of our current tax system. Oh the state is going to give you a "tax break" well we'll just increase evaluations and mills and get even more money to spend spend spend! Talk about being hypocritical about selfishness!

I would bet my life if school funding was removed from our property tax bill there wouldn't be this measure or near the angst over property taxes that there is right now.

 

[Obi-Wan]

I am a small farm owner, do you realize that if this passes these small operators who live a frugal life could end up paying more than they already pay ? I'm NOT ok putting my property into a tax pool amongst million dollar lake homes , large farms and large house owners. I get the desire but I'm not foolish enough to dive into this idea thinking it's going to save me any money.

How many acres do you own ?

 

[Obi-Wan]

Espringers..question for ya. I take it your a lawyer...this is a serious question and I will respect your answer(no bs). What way can the people hold those elected officials accountable other than votes..so in another words can the people sue those in charge or is the only option to try and recall? Just curious what options the people have to hold those elected officials responsibe other than recall/vote?

Those that were elected passed laws so they couldn’t be sued. Those in charge make the rules everyone else has to play by and exempt themselves

 

[Davey Crockett]

How many acres do you own ?

how many do you own ?

 

[Obi-Wan]

Lets looks at property taxes, roughly 50% go to school systems and the rest go to public safety(fire,law enforcement and ems), public works(road maintenance, water departments, etc, and community services(libraries, parks, etc). I will gladly pay property taxes knowing that is what they are going to. I live in a rural community and we are extremely dependent on property taxes. In these tight knit rural communities the governmental bodies are usually ran by well known, upstanding community members that truly want what best for the community and they use property taxes for the good of the community. Big cities obviously are not this way, the bigger the city the more corrupt it becomes, in my opinion.

Lets say measure 4 passes and now there isn't property taxes and its up to the state to find and delegate funds accordingly. They aren't going to find this money out of thin air, so a new tax of some sort will be implemented. After the new tax is implemented the state will have the needed funds. How is this new tax going to be assessed? Do you people really trust the state government to allocate those funds properly? Rural communities are going to suffer tremendously. The state will give the vast majority of the funds to the big cities and the rural communities will be left to scavenge the remains.

I understand the argument of "You don't truly own your property if there are property taxes". But until there is a bill that truly defines how the state is going to find the funds needed and how they will be allocated, voting yes on measure 4 is pure selfishness. You people aren't looking at the big picture implications if this bill passes, all you're thinking about is the short term extra dollars in your pocket.

By raising property taxes yearly they are forcing every property owner to “ find this money out of thin air “. Maybe these entities need to learn how to “ live within their means “

 

[Obi-Wan]

how many do you own ?

10 Acres, But I am not claiming to be a farmer. farm Land is taxed at a
different rate. You complain about million dollar lake homes while at the same time if you own one section of land it’s value at the low price of $1500/acre makes its value $ 960,000.00 just shy of a million. you Are willing to pay the same rate for your property that home owners and commercial owners are ?

 

[wslayer]

Cut everyone's property tax exactly in half. They can find additional funding somewhere "if" was actually needed. Win win both sides.
The spend it or lose it mentality is a bunch of horse sh*t.

 

[Davey Crockett]

10 Acres, But I am not claiming to be a farmer. farm Land is taxed at a
different rate. You complain about million dollar lake homes while at the same time if you own one section of land it’s value at the low price of $1500/acre makes its value $ 960,000.00 just shy of a million. you Are willing to pay the same rate for your property that home owners and commercial owners are ?

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm comparing . There's a hell of a difference in the two.
FWIW I own roughly 400 acres , 150 tillable and the rest is native woodland. Are you suggesting my taxes should go up and you don't pay any taxes or what are you getting at ? Are you willing to tax pool your 10 acres with my 400 and we split the taxes 50-50 ?

 

[Davey Crockett]

I honestly hope this measure fails by a very slim margin and the next time it comes to vote there is somewhat of a plan in place. Some of you guys have short memories and way to much faith in our leadership with the "lets pass it and let them figure it out" mentality. You're forgetting who we are dealing with and how they "fixed" the MMJ measure because they said we didn't know what we were doing.
I'm just as frustrated as the rest of you but I'm not willing to bend over and hope they don't give it to us the same way they did with the medical marijuana measure.

 

[Obi-Wan]

Why should my property taxes be based on the appraised value while yours is not taxed the same way ? if Property taxes are to stay they should all be assed the same, no picking winners and losers. With the current system you are on the winning side while I am on the losing side. you are one of those millionaires that don’t want to pay their fair share.

150 tillable acres at $2,120/ acre = $318,000
250 hunting acres at $3,350/acre = $ 842,500

it appears your land would have a value of around $ 1,160,500. According to data from 23 and current hunting land for sale in ND.

89 acres Towner county for $ 300,000 - $33,70/acre
355 acres for sale in Rollette county for $ 1,739,500 - $4,900/acre

https://www.landsearch.com/hunting/...nter=-100.179278+48.86378,tag=hunting,zoom=11

https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/newsre...cre-values-cropland.jpg/image_view_fullscreen

 

[FightingSioux]

Cut everyone's property tax exactly in half. They can find additional funding somewhere "if" was actually needed. Win win both sides.
The spend it or lose it mentality is a bunch of horse sh*t.

If the politicians in the state were serious about this issue they would convene a special session to address the out of control property tax issue. They could cap the property tax increases for a property by 2% per year. They could cap the mill rates at a specific percentage each year. They could put a cap on the affect of increasing land values on property tax increases. But no they chose to do nothing, and will do nothing unless we force them to address these issues.

 

[FightingSioux]

This is my biggest issue with our property tax system. I'll gladly pay my fair share for those other services, which we already do anyway thru multiple other taxes such as fuel and sales taxes. But I should never have to worry about losing my home to send somebody elses kids to school! Schools used to last 50-100 years, now these ass clowns think their kiddos need a new fucking school every 10-20. The school spending has gotten completely out of control and 90% of it is going to fund sports shit like new athletic facilities. Totally unnecessary expenses placed on the backs of tax payers! These fucking school boards think they have an unlimited check book because of our current tax system. Oh the state is going to give you a "tax break" well we'll just increase evaluations and mills and get even more money to spend spend spend! Talk about being hypocritical about selfishness!

I would bet my life if school funding was removed from our property tax bill there wouldn't be this measure or near the angst over property taxes that there is right now.

I shouldn’t have to pay for the county roads I don’t drive on so my taxes should be lower too. See how that works? Public school funding is never going to go away. Could they be forced to tighten their budgets? Yes. Tough decisions all around need to be made. Only way to make it happen is to force the politicians to act!

 

[Fester]

No, Garrrison Dam was not "wide open" in 2011. It ended up needing to release around 155,000 cfs in early June.

Garrison Dam was built to safely pass right around 899,000 cfs, so it was passing less than 20% of its rated discharge.

Recent dam safety studies now put the maximum flood (roughly a 1,000 yr event) at right around 1.2 million cfs. In the coming years, the dam will be modified to construct a larger capacity spillway in order to bring it back to the standard of needing to pass a 1,000 yr flood.

Note, this is happening at many dams across the country. These dams were built in the 1940-1960s with only 30-50 years worth of meteorologic and hydrologic data. There's now 90-100+ years of data and a good share of dams no longer provide the protection originally intended.

I don't know offhand to what extent (cfs) these new flood protections will buy in the way of flow in the river, but I am going to hazard a guess that there's no way anyone will pay what it would take to prevent flood damages from occurring at 1.2 million cfs.

Here's the existing stage-rating curve for Bismarck: https://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwisweb/get_ratings?site_no=06342500&file_type=exsa

It only goes up to 450,000 cfs at a stage of 27.0 ft, so one would have to extrapolate quite a bit to estimate how high the water would be in south Bismarck at 1.2 million cfs.

The flood of 1952 which had an estimated flow of 500,000 cfs reached a stage of 27.90 ft, but that's only #4 on the National Weather Service's ranking of worst floods in the Bismarck area. The 1881 flood reached 31.60 ft. If you would like to translate that into elevation above MSL, add 1619.46 ft and then compare it to your home's base elevation. This would be in the NAVD-88 vertical datum. You will want to add about a 1.25 ft for every river mile you are north of Steamboat Park, and subtract the same for every river mile you are below it to account for slope of the river.

Obviously, the risk of such floods in any given year are something around 0.1%, but it surely isn't 0.00000 and the consequences are quite apocalyptic.

The spillway wasn't 100% open? I thought news said it was open all the way. Your saying less then 20%?

 

[Trip McNeely]

This is my biggest issue with our property tax system. I'll gladly pay my fair share for those other services, which we already do anyway thru multiple other taxes such as fuel and sales taxes. But I should never have to worry about losing my home to send somebody elses kids to school! Schools used to last 50-100 years, now these ass clowns think their kiddos need a new fucking school every 10-20. The school spending has gotten completely out of control and 90% of it is going to fund sports shit like new athletic facilities. Totally unnecessary expenses placed on the backs of tax payers! These fucking school boards think they have an unlimited check book because of our current tax system. Oh the state is going to give you a "tax break" well we'll just increase evaluations and mills and get even more money to spend spend spend! Talk about being hypocritical about selfishness!

I would bet my life if school funding was removed from our property tax bill there wouldn't be this measure or near the angst over property taxes that there is right now.

The best part of all of it is you go to the schools orientation and open house only to learn that on top of all the taxes paid you now have to pay a $30-50 “fee” for almost every activity or event your kids are in. Lab fee, shop fee, fee this, fee that. We are at a point now where they know exactly how to milk every red cent out of you. This bill IMO is a message. The message, after multiple attempts to voice our frustration over out of control spending is simple…….., “you had your chance to correct this…. We’re done with your game”

 

[Trip McNeely]

By raising property taxes yearly they are forcing every property owner to “ find this money out of thin air “. Maybe these entities need to learn how to “ live within their means “

My taxes and mortgage have gone up by 100-200 a year the last 5 years because of “valuations” or in simple terms “unrealized gains on property” they are pushing you out of your homes people. Wake the fuck up. 44% capital gains tax proposed and they are eye balling unrealized gains on anything you have. So any liquidity you stand to make on your home or property will vanish. 401k is next. They are milking you. You will own nothing.

 

[Allen]

The spillway wasn't 100% open? I thought news said it was open all the way. Your saying less then 20%?

Right, not even close to being all the way open.

 

[Davey Crockett]

Why should my property taxes be based on the appraised value while yours is not taxed the same way ? if Property taxes are to stay they should all be assed the same, no picking winners and losers. With the current system you are on the winning side while I am on the losing side. you are one of those millionaires that don’t want to pay their fair share.

150 tillable acres at $2,120/ acre = $318,000
250 hunting acres at $3,350/acre = $ 842,500

it appears your land would have a value of around $ 1,160,500. According to data from 23 and current hunting land for sale in ND.

89 acres Towner county for $ 300,000 - $33,70/acre
355 acres for sale in Rollette county for $ 1,739,500 - $4,900/acre

https://www.landsearch.com/hunting/north-dakota/filter/center=-100.179278+48.86378,tag=hunting,zoom=11

https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/newsre...cre-values-cropland.jpg/image_view_fullscreen

No I'm not , you don't have a clue about my situation. First off, I'm now retired but I've paid full taxes on my house and outbuildings since day one just like you have. I had to work full time off the farm to make ends meet and my off the farm income was more than my farm income. Your responses bleed liberal tears , you are suggesting I don't pay enough taxes and you pay too much. If you think I have it so good why don't you go out and buy some land and work 2 or 3 jobs to keep it like I did. You better hurry though, if this passes land values are going to skyrocket and drive 99% of the people out of the buying market.

 

[Trip McNeely]

That’s why the dolts in our legislature better be ready to make this “primary residence only” because it will pass this time

 

[bravo]