The Great Escape

[luvcatchingbass]

Nah it never occurred to me...
If you read the article I believe someone mentioned a tag. Anyways, my point was solely on the private property issue. And when you start factoring in this guys livelihood is raising deer for antlers it kind of changes things as far as being considered a jackwad.

Yes it does mention a tag, forgot seeing that part or I'm illiterate, which is very possible.
So did the state say the hunters could keep the deer or did he make the decision on his own?

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Seeing as it is his personal property he has the right to do as he wishes with the results of the deer escape. So he could probably force that he regains some or all of his property or allow the hunters to keep what they harvested in a legal intention, assuming they could not see an ear tag blatantly. Sounds to me that the owner is a stand up guy and apparently made the decision to allow the hunters to retain possession, call it a gift. In a case like this there is a Deer Hunting season involved with licenses alloted to individuals versus your analogies to cattle or bison. Last I checked there is not much for Bison hunting in North America and you still need to have a license to publicly harvest and to my knowledge there is no license for hunting cattle at all.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

It's no more sporting than shooting deer out the window of a moving truck. These people are not sportsmen so it isn't separating sportsmen it's separating sportsmen from slob shooters. I see the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation is still your Bible PG?

That sounds good on the surface, but we have taken out market hunters, market hunters shooting wildlife to feed railroad crews ended a long time ago PG. we have taken out spot lighters, spotlighting was in when the rabbit population went nuts. If they were to explode like that again, I'd wager the State would allow spotlighting. we don't allow shooting deer from an aircraft. A civilized society has laws. Time after time I have seen people on here complain about road hunters. That's no different.

I don't know how many times I have heard people say "well as long as it's legal". They need to go back to grade school. We would never have thought we would get to shooting deer inside a pen and calling it sport.? How about throwing a pheasant into the air or kicking a Quail in the ass. Your old work place partner at the USGS, David Brandt was very good at spinning a pheasant to make them dizzy and place them so they didn't fly too early or run. So lets say lasers get cheap enough to be lethal on deer to 5000 yards. No aiming over, and at 186,000 miles per second there is no lead. There are no laws against it so I guess we just let then fry deer to their hearts content. Or would we as sportsmen be responsible enough to outlaw such weapons? Some states outlaw 50 cal, some states outlaw crossbows, some states allow handicapped to use crossbows. Saying as long as it's legal is simply irresponsible and not giving a crap.


That would be my guess too, but it's a guess. Even when they find them we hear about people arrested for moving known infected deer at night across state lines. Minnesota to Tennessee if memory serves me. Then there was the game farm in (was in Minnesota or Wisconsin) that had a tree mysteriously fall on his fence and release his deer after they tested positive for CWD. When have we ever contained something like this when profit is involved?

PG, what was in the purple Kool-Aid North American Model of Wildlife Conservation that made you disciples fall so hard? This (NAMWC) North American Model of Wildlife Conservation is more often than not confused with the (NAWCM) North American Wildlife Conservation Model. It's quite a play on words. The later, NAWCM is something that this country practiced from 1890 to 1990. The NAMWC was written in the 1990's by Valerius Geist from communist East Germany and Mahoney from Canada. They took hundred years of this countries success, claimed it as their own then morphed it into this fight for power, money and control.

I'll never forget Geist telling me that the management of wildlife should rest entirely with highly intelligent wildlife professionals not the legislature. So here is the question PG, when are you most civilized elitists planning to shut down shooting preserves raising pen raised birds for sport? The second platform of the NAMWC manifesto commands you to do it.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Anyone

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Anyone can read Prairie Ghost but how many know where he is coming from? The North American Wildlife Conservation Model is America's history. By 1880 the buffalo, elk, deer and many species were in decline. Efforts were made to eliminate markets, protect and preserve game. Laws were enacted that you have to purchase a license etc.

Things are much better today. I can think of no one selling eagle feathers or poached deer meat. In the 1990's Geist from Communist East Germany living in Canada and Shane Mahoney wrote The North American "Model" of Wildlife Conservation. Clever.......they changed a couple words around. There are seven platforms to their NAMWC manifesto.

In this thread Prairie Ghost is talking about Manifesto platform number two. Markets for Game are eliminated. They give a summary of the past and of course we all concur no one should be killing/selling a public resource for feathers or meat or antlers.

But then they make a giant leap.

Current Status, Threats, and Challenges.— Commercial trade for reptiles, amphibians, and fish is thriving (Nanjappa and Conrad 2011). In addition, some game species that we would expect to fall under the principles of the Model are actively traded. Deer (Odocoileus spp.), elk, ring-necked pheasants (Phasianus colchicus), quail, chukar (Alectoris chukar), and more exotic wildlife species are commonly bought and sold (Freese and Trauger 2000). Related to wildlife markets are contests and tournaments common in rural areas of the country. Big buck contests, coyote hunts, crow (Corvus spp.) hunts, and numerous other commercial contests imply a market-based hunting situation. The sale of furbearers, seal (Phocidae) fur, antlers, reproduced antlers, and a variety of other wildlife parts needs to be considered in light of the principle that markets for wildlife are eliminated. A robust market for access to wildlife occurring across the U.S. and Canada exists in the form of leases, reserved permits, and shooting preserves.

http://wildlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/North-American-model-of-Wildlife-Conservation.pdf

So here is the question PG, when are you most civilized elitists planning to shut down shooting preserves raising pen raised birds for sport? The second platform of the NAMWC manifesto commands you to do it. ​

In a Capitalist Society, if your company is producing widgets for a dollar while ten other companies are selling the same for fifty cents , you're either going to get competitive or get out.

Valerius Geist grew up in Communist East Germany where government regulation and enforcement were used to kill other widget makers deemed competition.

There's enough room here for everyone to co-exist. ​

 

[PrairieGhost]

Efforts were made to eliminate markets, protect and preserve game. Laws were enacted that you have to purchase a license etc.

Why? Some say if it's legal it's ok. At one time you could do anything you wanted to and it was legal. It was legal to kill a couple hundred buffalo in a day, shoot Carrier Pidgeon off the roost at night with a 4 gauge shotgun, and spot light deer. Those that say it's ok if it's legal would still have us doing those things. People shooting deer out their pickup window are more sportsmen than those shooting in a pen. The only thing high fence has going for it is keeping the slobs out of the field. Its dissapointing there are so few real sportsmen around. Their is a reason groups like the Safari Club International and others define fair chase for their members.
Your right laws were enacted, and do you know who asked for them? Sportsmen asked for them, not anti hunters, but responsible real conservationist hunters. Not irresponsible if it's legal it's ok crowd frightened when the market hunters said "we need to stick together". Today it's the people pimping antlers scaring people.

 

[Kurtr]

Here is SCI definition for estate taken animals. You should maybe look stuff up before making it up.......


SCI Fair Chase Requirements for Record Book Entries of Estate Animals
An Estate animal must meet the following criteria in order to be qualified for entry into the Record Book:


SCI Fair Chase Requirements for Record Book Entries of Estate Animals



An Estate animal must meet the following criteria in order to be qualified for entry into the Record Book:

A. The animal must have freely resided on the hunted property and the area to be hunted for six months, or longer.

B. The animal must be part of a breeding herd that is resident on the hunted property.

C. The operators of the hunted property must provide freely available and ample amounts of cover, food and water at all times.

D. The hunted property must provide escape cover that allows the animals to elude hunters for extended periods of time and multiple occurrences.

E. Escape cover, in the form of rugged terrain or topography, and/or dense thickets or stands of woods, shall collectively comprise at least 50% of the hunted property.

F. The animal must exhibit its natural flight/survival instincts.

G. No zoo animal, exhibited animal or tame animal may be considered for entry into the Record Book.

H. Hunting methods employed cannot include driving, herding or chasing the animal to the hunter.

I. SCI supports prevention, management, and research of all wildlife diseases as it pertains to high fenced and non-high fenced hunting areas.

 

[huntorride365]

Think you're misunderstanding my point. He can do whatever he wishes with his property. My point was it appeared game and fish made that decision. Maybe, maybe not. Can't tell from the article. My point has nothing to do with what season is on, just private property rules. If the owner let the hunters keep the racks the article should have noted that little fact as it would contribute immensely to the story.

 

[PrairieGhost]

Kurt an estate animal is not ever entered the same as a wild animal. Get a clue. I am surprised they started the estate thing. That must be something to be really proud of.

 

[Kurtr]

Your a clown who makes it up as you go. SCI had always had that . Jim Shockey has talked about it for years. They do have it split but you said SCI and organize like them were against high fence operations. Well they are not it is on the front page of their web site. You try to make stuff up to sound good and are proven wrong time and time again. Now it's going to be another story about back in 32 I was at a meeting with a guy who said SCI so it must have changed but I do t have the means to look stuff up to make a factual argument.....wait we are on the internet ?? Google is a cool thing......

 

[Fritz the Cat]

PG, It's fun watching you try to blur straight lines. No one shoots over a hundred buffalo a day. No one spotlights deer. This is our North American Wildlife Conservation Model. Our history. NAWCM.

PG, what you are talking about is something written in the 1990's. The North American "Model" of Wildlife Conservation. It's very confusing to people because they think it is one and the same. It is not. You know that because you were there at Wildlife Society meetings where this promoted. Maybe the wildlife industry (the highly intelligent wildlife professionals) feel the private sector is encroaching upon their domain?

PG writes:

Its disappointing there are so few real sportsmen around.

Well...........that was rather condescending.

Their is a reason groups like the Safari Club International and others define fair chase for their members.​

I believe you meant to say Boone and Crocket there PG. Safari Club is high fence central. Did you know that Shane Mahoney who co-authored the NAMWC had to find employment with the Dallas Safari Club? Shane's gotta eat too. Someone should have told him the trouble with socialism is that sooner or later you're going to run out of other peoples money.

However PG, you have avoided my question long enough:

when are you most civilized elitists planning to shut down shooting preserves raising pen raised birds for sport? The second platform of the NAMWC manifesto commands you to do it. ​

 

[Ericb]

. People shooting deer out their pickup window are more sportsmen than those shooting in a pen.

Good thing your highly ethical moral values trump the law!

 

[PrairieGhost]

you said SCI and organize like them were against high fence operations.

I tried to find where I said that, maybe you can point it out for me.

No one shoots over a hundred buffalo a day.

But in the past we did captain obvious. I am simply explaining why we don't do some things now. We implemented laws for conservation. I guess that's not popular today.

 

[Kurtr]

Good thing your highly ethical moral values trump the law!

Ironic isn't it. Hahaha

 

[Fritz the Cat]

But in the past we did captain obvious. I am simply explaining why we don't do some things now. We implemented laws for conservation. I guess that's not popular today.

No one is arguing that shooting a hundred buffalo a day back in the 1880's was a good idea. Laws were passed that no one could shoot them in Yellowstone National Park and ranchers along the Musselshells River in Montana gave them sanctuary. Trades were made and people could own them. Buffalo are plentiful. That's conservation, that's The North American Wildlife Conservation Model.

Over 100 years of success is being hijacked. The North American "Wildlife" Conservation has seven platforms in its manifesto. Each one gives a summary of the past and then try to blend in their elite vision for the future of the wildlife industry. Number two:

Markets for Game are Eliminated

Current Status, Threats, and Challenges.— Commercial trade for reptiles, amphibians, and fish is thriving (Nanjappa and Conrad 2011). In addition, some game species that we would expect to fall under the principles of the Model are actively traded. Deer (Odocoileus spp.), elk, ring-necked pheasants (Phasianus colchicus), quail, chukar (Alectoris chukar), and more exotic wildlife species are commonly bought and sold (Freese and Trauger 2000). Related to wildlife markets are contests and tournaments common in rural areas of the country. Big buck contests, coyote hunts, crow (Corvus spp.) hunts, and numerous other commercial contests imply a market-based hunting situation. The sale of furbearers, seal (Phocidae) fur, antlers, reproduced antlers, and a variety of other wildlife parts needs to be considered in light of the principle that markets for wildlife are eliminated. A robust market for access to wildlife occurring across the U.S. and Canada exists in the form of leases, reserved permits, and shooting preserves.

​

"that we would expect to fall under".....this is the reach I'm talking about. Are Pheasants on a game preserve private property or are they under the bailiwick of these wildlife industry guys who want to end game preserves period?

However PG, you have avoided my question long enough: when are you most civilized elitists planning to shut down shooting preserves raising pen raised birds for sport? The second platform of the NAMWC manifesto commands you to do it. ​

 

[Kurtr]

Preemptive strike. He will say they are non native to north America so they don't fall under their con job model of wildlife preservation......
3..2.....1.... Wait for it ....here it comes!

 

[PrairieGhost]

Over 100 years of success is being hijacked. The North American "Wildlife" Conservation has seven platforms in its manifesto.

First off do you have a copy of this "manifesto", or are you just pulling one from the liberal playbook and calling it a manifesto because it congers up emotions and makes links that don't exist?????

Kurt, stop having erotic dreams about Cam Hanes and get a clue.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Unbelievable........PG, you attended the Wildlife Society Meeting with Geist in 2005 where this was discussed. Everything you espouse, regurgitate, reiterate comes out of that play book. Now you pretend you do not have a copy. Here ya go,

http://wildlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/North-American-model-of-Wildlife-Conservation.pdf

Current Status, Threats, and Challenges.— Commercial trade for reptiles, amphibians, and fish is thriving (Nanjappa and Conrad 2011). In addition, some game species that we would expect to fall under the principles of the Model are actively traded. Deer (Odocoileus spp.), elk, ring-necked pheasants (Phasianus colchicus), quail, chukar (Alectoris chukar), and more exotic wildlife species are commonly bought and sold (Freese and Trauger 2000). Related to wildlife markets are contests and tournaments common in rural areas of the country. Big buck contests, coyote hunts, (does anyone remember the coyote contest at Hurdsfield when Randy Kreil NDGF showed up and came out against the event? Kreil was wildlife society and a disciple of the NAMWC too) crow (Corvus spp.) hunts, and numerous other commercial contests imply a market-based hunting situation. The sale of furbearers, seal (Phocidae) fur, antlers, reproduced antlers, and a variety of other wildlife parts needs to be considered in light of the principle that markets for wildlife are eliminated. A robust market for access to wildlife occurring across the U.S. and Canada exists in the form of leases, reserved permits, and shooting preserves.

​

However PG, you have avoided my question long enough:

when are you most civilized elitists planning to shut down shooting preserves raising pen raised birds for sport? The second platform of the NAMWC manifesto commands you to do it. ​

Common PG, you need to own the whole thing. You can't pick and choose which parts or industries you oppose. The NAMWC is against the commercial trade of fish. Especially exotics. How are you Koi doing? I support your right to own them.

 

[Kurtr]

Predicable as the sun sets in the West.......

 

[PrairieGhost]

I'll never forget Geist telling me that the management of wildlife should rest entirely with highly intelligent wildlife professionals not the legislature.

When it comes to education there are two types of fools. There are the fools with an education that think people without an education are not intelligent, then the second kind of fool thinks people with an education have no common sense. Fritz your the second kind of fool. Raising elk like cows in a pen isn't the same as managing elk in the wild. People have to know habitat requirements and nutrition of available foods. You perhaps know the nutritional value of many of your grasses. The vitamins and minerals of each species in different habitats would be analyzed in a laboratory. Do you really think a rancher or farmer run that laboratory or a half dozen Phd's with expertise in different fields? Likely a Phd botanist, a phd chemist, a phd nutritionist. We had a fellow on here talking about a Montana rancher who developed a grazing system. That was the biggest bunch of bs I have ever heard. When I get on my phone I will give you the publication by the "scientist" who did develop the grazing system. So how many people in our legislature do you think are qualified to make wildlife management decisions. I would expect they all think they are, but reality is absolutely zero are.

By the way don't try make it look as if I believe in climate change. This guy simply did a lot of research on grazing. His name is Allen Savory. I'll type it here since I can't get it to transfer from my phone.

www.ted.com/talks/allan/_savoryhow_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change/up-next?language=eng.

I have not read this for years, but I'll take a chance that it's pertinent to the grazing system that the Montana rancher supposedly started.

Next Fritz you will tell us to forget our doctor and have a legislator do our surgeries.

 

[JMF]

PG, are you avoiding the question or can you not see red? Fritz asked you the same question at least 3 times, in red, and you have dodged it each time.