Wyoming muledeer

[Trip McNeely]

I think this whole fucking thing stinks to high heaven of a federal government plan to eradicate deer in hopes to eradicate hunting in the US. (Self sufficiency, large gun ownership and lobby groups) Once the deer are gone the sportsmen will dwindle. Once the sportsmen are gone what do you think they’ll do? Yep they’ll tell us we don’t need guns. Yes I think our federal government is that fucked up to do this. And no I’m not even wearing a tinfoil hat. Sometimes the worst things done imaginable are done by those trying to “help”….. Brock step outside the box for a bit and look at all angles. Why would anyone advocate slaughtering whole herds without conclusive science?

 

[Trip McNeely]

I don't know if human intervention through herd reduction is logical, but natural selection could wipe out very large areas. The percentage of infection in one year was a big surprise to me. I'm still confused why it's more prevalent in ag areas.
Writing this off like we do global warming may be a big mistake. I woukd expect everyone involved with or profiting from deer to encourage you to make light of this problem. Keep in mind it appears to be something new, and it could be devastating before we see natural resistance build. I'll admit some science is political motivated bs, but some isn't. Armchair scientist can't tell the difference. I'm all with you on global warming etc, but I'm worried about CWD.

It’s more prevalent in ag areas because of the glyphosate in the soil. This is causing thinning of membranes and in turn they are more permeable to “prions” that normal deer would not be susceptible too without this thinning. There I said it. This is a neurological disorder caused by glyphosate much like the now numerous class action lawsuits against makers of glyphosate products causing neurological disorders in humans exposed to it. So what Brock and other “helpers” are doing here is being foot soldiers for big Ag to push this narrative to gaslight any real “science” and knee jerk the shit out of it to avoid being put under a microscope( pun intended)

 

[Prairie Doggin']

I'm with guywhodoesntwanttoeradicatedeer.

I always wonder the same thing when avian flu is discovered in a flock of chickens or turkeys...why not quarantine the flock (enclosed building), let them die off, and see if there are some that are immune? The ones that survive (if any) could populate future flocks, and maybe it wouldn't be a thing.

Admittedly, I'm no scientist, but to me it seems like killing off a classroom of kids because the kid whose mom never let him play in the ball pit at McDonald's because it was too dirty and used hand sanitizer every time he touched a doorknob or stair rail (so never was exposed to anything and has zero immunities) was sick again. (Speaking figuratively in that run-on sentence, but you maybe get the point.)

Maybe, the whole flock dies. Or, maybe, 1 or 2 or 12 survive. Maybe those (that) turkey/chicken possesses some sort of immunity that can be replicated/passed on.

Might be nonsense, but maybe not

 

[PrairieGhost]

I think this whole fucking thing stinks to high heaven of a federal government plan to eradicate deer in hopes to eradicate hunting in the US. (Self sufficiency, large gun ownership and lobby groups) Once the deer are gone the sportsmen will dwindle. Once the sportsmen are gone what do you think they’ll do?

I don't know if that's right, but there is something very dark in our government. Obama couldn't destroy America in eight years, and Hillary was supposed to drive the stake through the heart, but along came Trump. Then Biden turned the FBI into the gestapo. Much of what many thought was tinfoil hat mentality turned out to be true.

Admittedly, I'm no scientist, but to me it seems like killing off a classroom of kids because the kid whose mom never let him play in the ball pit at McDonald's because it was too dirty and used hand sanitizer every time he touched a doorknob

It's a fact that kids that have dogs have a better immune system. If I remember right they have found a couple American Elm that were resistant to Dutch Elm disease. The killing off of chicken flocks fits right in with all the fires at food processing plants. Also there is only one reason to take our guns. The elite prefer disarmed peasants to armed citizens. The battle between democrats and republicans isn't a battle between good and evil, it's a battle between evil and greater evil. Their all buddies behind the facade.

As to CWD I don't know what the best route is, but we definitely need to increase the punishment when they catch deer ranchers trading or selling infected deer. The only people who could be against that are those who value short term monitary gains over the future of deer and hunters.

 

[FightingSioux]

It’s more prevalent in ag areas because of the glyphosate in the soil. This is causing thinning of membranes and in turn they are more permeable to “prions” that normal deer would not be susceptible too without this thinning. There I said it. This is a neurological disorder caused by glyphosate much like the now numerous class action lawsuits against makers of glyphosate products causing neurological disorders in humans exposed to it. So what Brock and other “helpers” are doing here is being foot soldiers for big Ag to push this narrative to gaslight any real “science” and knee jerk the shit out of it to avoid being put under a microscope( pun intended)

WY in most areas is 0% agricultural lands. CWD is rampant regardless of any farm fields.

The mule deer population is taking a beating from CWD and mountain lions so much that the deer season is only 7 days in most places. I know some huge ranches that don’t even allow any mule deer hunting in a prime area and it still has no effect on populations.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

As to CWD I don't know what the best route is, but we definitely need to increase the punishment when they catch deer ranchers trading or selling infected deer. The only people who could be against that are those who value short term monitary gains over the future of deer and hunters.

PG, your hatred is showing. Wyoming doesn't have any farmed deer ranches.

In that area of Wyoming, the ranchers raise and sell alfalfa. If the alfalfa is taking up prions, do a lock down where they cannot sell alfalfa. See how that works for you.

 

[CAH]

I

PG, your hatred is showing. Wyoming doesn't have any farmed deer ranches.

In that area of Wyoming, the ranchers raise and sell alfalfa. If the alfalfa is taking up prions, do a lock down where they cannot sell alfalfa. See how that works for you.

I dont think he was being a hater, there is proof and it is a fact that farmed deer spread disease….

 

[Kurtr]

I

I dont think he was being a hater, there is proof and it is a fact that farmed deer spread disease….

How can there be cwd if there are no farmed deer in Wyoming? Cant be from wild deer.........

 

[CAH]

How can there be cwd if there are no farmed deer in Wyoming? Cant be from wild deer.........

True dat. Im just playing devils advocate, I dont follow this shit enough to have a strong opinion. I just know how some of you old curmudgeons on here entrench yourselves in ideas.

 

[guywhofishes]

This alfalfa and/or herbicide link is quite interesting.

Weren't the "patient zero" mulies captive deer? I assume that they were probably beingfed cubed alfalfa or some other food that contained alfalfa and/or herbicide.

We all know how deer will pretty much dedicate themselves to feeding in alfalfa fields if/when they get the opportunity.

And does describing Wyoming "in most areas as 0% ag" include alfalfa/hay land? I'm sure the ranches are into hay production - which certainly includes herbicide use.

 

[guywhofishes]

see the PRION DISEASES AND MANGANESE section

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392553/

 

[bravo]

It does sort of connect the dots. Just look at who started the biggest fuss about all the CWD propaganda. Fish and wildlife departments never stood to raise any significant money from CWD control. In fact they lose money long term by lowering tag numbers. By and large it is not sportsmen leading the charge against CWD regulations. It’s been ag groups who shout the loudest about game and fish overreach and how they violate their landowner rights. They’ve done a fine job of using disgruntled hunters to do their leg work. And look at the usual solutions proposed - feeding, genetics, inoculations, spreading copper over land. Tax dollars going in that direction are a-ok? Side benefit of lower crop depredation, fewer hunters in the countryside, and less competition for land (price wise) from recreators.

That said, culling a herd is fucking stupid. Find a better way.

 

[BrockW]

see the PRION DISEASES AND MANGANESE section

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392553/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5705608/
"In their third commentary, Samsel and Seneff create multiple syllogisms based on the fact that glyphosate can chelate manganese (Mn) (13). At face value, there is merit in this supposition, since glyphosate was originally patented and used as a divalent cation metal chelator (US Patent No. 3160632A). These authors propose that the dysregulation of Mn homeostasis by glyphosate chelation could cause osteoporosis and osteomalacia (because bone mineralization depends on Mn), seizures (associated with reduced serum Mn), and prion diseases (since the prion protein, PrP, can misfold following binding to Mn instead of Cu). They also claim that large-scale environmental damage, such as the collapse of coral reefs, may in fact be due to glyphosate because coral mucus contains sulfated glycoproteins similar to chondroitin sulfate, whose synthesis is dependent on Mn. However, the conclusions from this commentary are speculative since the effects of glyphosate on metal micronutrient homeostasis have never been characterized. Samsel and Seneff propose that glyphosate chelation of Mn can promote binding of this nutrient metal to PrP, causing it to misfold, and rendering it capable of catalyzing metal-free aggregation of this protein (28), which in turn could lead to prion disease. However, the sequestration of Mn by glyphosate would effectively make it unavailable to participate in interactions with other substances including proteins, making it unable to bind in place of Cu to PrP to promote misfolding and prion disease as suggested. Indeed, based on the arguments presented, chelation of Mn by glyphosate would be protective against, rather than a causative agent of, prion disease as this would prevent this divalent cation from binding to PrP.
Out of the 328 references quoted in these authors’ third commentary (13), which are used to support their proposal of a link between Mn chelation by glyphosate and chronic diseases, only one study reports the effects of glyphosate on Mn levels in animals (29). This investigation looked at a possible connection between urinary concentrations of glyphosate and Mn, and health indicators in Danish dairy cows. The results revealed a correlation between markers indicative of a disturbance in kidney function and glyphosate urinary concentration; i.e., the higher the levels of glyphosate found in the urine, the greater the indicators of kidney dysfunction. However, although Mn levels were abnormally low, they were not correlated with urinary glyphosate levels. Although no doubt interesting additional studies are required to clarify the mechanism of the observed low levels of Mn in these farm animals. Thus, this study (29) cannot be used to conclude on an effect of glyphosate on Mn homeostasis. The conclusions of the third commentary by Samsel and Seneff are thus unsupported by evidence."



Additional work by Dr. Michael Antoniou specific to this topic is below. It should be noted that Dr. Antoniou has been very vocal and public about his opposition to the use of Glyphosate and some of it's impacts to human health. So he's not some paid shill of "big ag". But he proves that facts matter, and the fact is he was not able to link glyphosate to be a causal factor in prion diseases via glycine to glyphosate substitution in proteins.
https://gmwatch.org/en/106-news/lat...d-into-the-proteins-that-structure-our-bodies

 

[guywhofishes]

It sure does seem that the proteins responsible have "always been there" and that something(s) is lowering the deer's tolerance and/or is allowing the proteins to misfold and become "active".

I wonder if remote populations that have no contact with water or crops affected by common agriculture (deer way back in the sticks) have been found to be infected with CWD?

 

[BrockW]

I also agree with @Fritz the Cat in that blaming deer farmers isn't of much use at this point, unless you're living in Texas or Wisconsin perhaps. In most of the other areas of the country, it's been a long time since CWD in captive cervids has spilled over into the wild. Do they hold some blame for past outbreaks? Sure. But that cat's out of the bag and it isn't going back in. Many of those deer farmers aren't even in business anymore. So, in my opinion, we're better off trying to work together rather than pointing fingers at deer farmers (though there are some exceptions to that statement in Wisconsin and Texas).

There's actually been some work done showing that high prevalence in the wild is a significant increase in risk to captive facilities in that same area finding the disease within their fence. I believe it's actually happened fairly recently (wild to captive spillover). It's in everyone's (hunters and deer farmers) best interest to keep this disease at a mininum and slow it's geographic spread and increase in prevalance as much as possible.

 

[SDMF]

I wonder if there's any CWD in the deer on Kodiak or AntiCosti?

 

[Allen]

While the discussion on modern ag chemicals and their potential effects on cervids is interesting. The spread of CWD has been pretty classic in the sense of a disease spread, not the spread of the use of glyphosate. If CWD was primarily associated with glyphosate, CWD would have arisen at about the same time across numerous locations on this continent. Instead, it has been relatively well tracked in its spread from a central point in those captive mule deer herds of the 1960s in Wyoming. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think WY was a pioneer in glyphosate usage.

I would love to place the blame for this at the feet of Bayer, but I don't think there's a very good chance of that.

I, for one, wouldn't mind a complete ban on glyphosate's use in killing crops so they can be harvested. The rise in Celiac's disease is just one that's been linked to glyphosate in the food chain. Many modern cereal products are well above acceptable limits for glyphosate. https://www.consumernotice.org/environmental/pesticides/glyphosate-in-food/

 

[Trip McNeely]

While the discussion on modern ag chemicals and their potential effects on cervids is interesting. The spread of CWD has been pretty classic in the sense of a disease spread, not the spread of the use of glyphosate. If CWD was primarily associated with glyphosate, CWD would have arisen at about the same time across numerous locations on this continent. Instead, it has been relatively well tracked in its spread from a central point in those captive mule deer herds of the 1960s in Wyoming. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think WY was a pioneer in glyphosate usage.

I would love to place the blame for this at the feet of Bayer, but I don't think there's a very good chance of that.

I, for one, wouldn't mind a complete ban on glyphosate's use in killing crops so they can be harvested. The rise in Celiac's disease is just one that's been linked to glyphosate in the food chain. Many modern cereal products are well above acceptable limits for glyphosate. https://www.consumernotice.org/environmental/pesticides/glyphosate-in-food/

Maybe Wyoming was ground zero for the “discovery” of the disease. To say it originated there is untrue as we don’t know for certain where it originated. It’s very plausible it was in other areas before or while they “discovered” it In Wyoming. Where someone decided to study it or discovered it doesn’t mean it hasn’t been in populations elsewhere longer. How would we know for certain as they weren’t looking for it in other areas of the country at the time. And judging by the holes in the science and the many questions and uncertainties within the science and I think we can all agree they as well as we don’t have much of a handle on cwd as a whole to this point. Which brings up the point we are trying to make, in that any solution or act taken now needs to be based off clearly definitive answers and not just wiping out whole herds to make someone feel like they did something. Doing nothing is a decision and sometimes is a better decision than doing something.

 

[Trip McNeely]

Is it the spread of cwd or the spread of testing for cwd allen?

 

[Allen]

Is it the spread of cwd or the spread of testing for cwd allen?

To say we have gotten better at testing for CWD, would be quite the understatement even though it's still got a long ways to go.

Nonetheless, ever since the creation of state agencies for wildlife management, there have been people calling them and reporting strange looking/behaving and dead critters. My only experience at it was calling in a young buck that was in the final stages of a brain worm. Still, if there had been a widespread and mysterious disease that caused emaciation and death of deer, there would be at least some reports of this in the records of the state veterinarian or wildlife management agencies, etc.

And when they finally figured out the cause of those mysterious deaths, it would have been an "ah HAH" moment. To date, I am not aware of any such moment, or widespread (even if it were just a few cases per year) of such in people's backyards, hay piles, or XXXX. No, Occam's Razor suggests this is a fairly new disease with some of the first examples being found in WY. Is it exasperated by agricultural chemicals as the above discussion suggests? That is a damn good question.