Wyoming muledeer

[guywhofishes]

While the discussion on modern ag chemicals and their potential effects on cervids is interesting. The spread of CWD has been pretty classic in the sense of a disease spread, not the spread of the use of glyphosate. If CWD was primarily associated with glyphosate, CWD would have arisen at about the same time across numerous locations on this continent. Instead, it has been relatively well tracked in its spread from a central point in those captive mule deer herds of the 1960s in Wyoming. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think WY was a pioneer in glyphosate usage.

I would love to place the blame for this at the feet of Bayer, but I don't think there's a very good chance of that.

I, for one, wouldn't mind a complete ban on glyphosate's use in killing crops so they can be harvested. The rise in Celiac's disease is just one that's been linked to glyphosate in the food chain. Many modern cereal products are well above acceptable limits for glyphosate. https://www.consumernotice.org/environmental/pesticides/glyphosate-in-food/

It's not necessarily the glyphosate itself directly causing the illness, it's the potential for glyphosate to bind metals that usually tie up the prions or some other tricky backdoor way of enabling of prions to become "infectious". Or the potential for the glyphosate to reduce a deer's ability to resist infection in some as yet unknown mode.

Maybe the glyphosate (or other ag chemical) is a key factor - but it's not able to stricken a deer on its own. It only enables it if the other factors are primed for it.

Local conditions (soils, temps, water sources, plant types, and a million other factors) might be at play. It seems to fit - why else would this herd in this particular location be in BIG trouble while others aren't? Are they only getting their water from a certain groundwater reservoir or surface body of water? That type of thing.

If it's the case that certain other factors have to be in line for glyphosate (or other bad actor ag chemical) to be the poison pill, then use of that chemical itself isn't going to track directly with the prion infection rate - but it'll be the new variable that nature wasn't expecting in some areas far more than others.

I totally agree with a ban on burning down crops with glyphosate. Madness IMO.

 

[Fester]

Why do we... as in people... feel like we have to be the ones to mess with nature????? I get Brock wants to take our money and pat himself on the back for a job well done... but is it really necessary for us humans to always interfere with nature? Who the hell did it before us geniuses.... like Brock (professional pan handler)were around?

 

[Allen]

It's not necessarily the glyphosate itself directly causing the illness, it's the potential for glyphosate to bind metals that usually tie up the prions or some other tricky backdoor way of enabling of prions to become "infectious". Or the potential for the glyphosate to reduce a deer's ability to resist infection in some as yet unknown mode.

Maybe the glyphosate (or other ag chemical) is a key factor - but it's not able to stricken a deer on its own. It only enables it if the other factors are primed for it.

Local conditions (soils, temps, water sources, plant types, and a million other factors) might be at play. It seems to fit - why else would this herd in this particular location be in BIG trouble while others aren't? Are they only getting their water from a certain groundwater reservoir or surface body of water? That type of thing.

If it's the case that certain other factors have to be in line for glyphosate (or other bad actor ag chemical) to be the poison pill, then use of that chemical itself isn't going to track directly with the prion infection rate - but it'll be the new variable that nature wasn't expecting in some areas far more than others.

I totally agree with a ban on burning down crops with glyphosate. Madness IMO.

Right, I think we're on the same page with there possibly being a trigger associated with glyphosate. However, as you mentioned there may be many other contributing factors in the soil such as pH, nutrients, etc. If that were the case, I think CWD would still be largely contained to those areas with that nutrient, pH, chemical environment. It's not, rather CWD is now spreading across a near infinite number of different soil types. At least, I don't know of any area of the country where CWD has hit some type of natural barrier to transmission.

The above map covers a vast area of the continent with very old soils from igneous rocks out in Idaho, to very young soils generated from sedimentary rock out here on the plains, and again back to Canadian Shield based soils in northern MN.

Perhaps, this is a better map at showing more of a disease based spread than an environmental spread.

So, while the discussion on the science of micro nutrients and the changes/effects a chemical like glyphosate can have on those in a cervid's (or human's) body is worth looking into, I see more correlation than I do causation.

 

[Trip McNeely]

To say we have gotten better at testing for CWD, would be quite the understatement even though it's still got a long ways to go.

Nonetheless, ever since the creation of state agencies for wildlife management, there have been people calling them and reporting strange looking/behaving and dead critters. My only experience at it was calling in a young buck that was in the final stages of a brain worm. Still, if there had been a widespread and mysterious disease that caused emaciation and death of deer, there would be at least some reports of this in the records of the state veterinarian or wildlife management agencies, etc.

And when they finally figured out the cause of those mysterious deaths, it would have been an "ah HAH" moment. To date, I am not aware of any such moment, or widespread (even if it were just a few cases per year) of such in people's backyards, hay piles, or XXXX. No, Occam's Razor suggests this is a fairly new disease with some of the first examples being found in WY. Is it exasperated by agricultural chemicals as the above discussion suggests? That is a damn good question.

But that’s the thing especially in ND….. there hasn’t been a widespread death event or any indication of major impact on deer both from a health standpoint or die-off. The deer here just don’t reach that age here. The only reason we’ve been told to look for it and test is because federal agencies said so and connected big monies to it. No one can say what came first here. The chicken or the egg…. How do we know this disease hasn’t been in deer since their existence and now because of chemicals in agricultural practices are making a disease that has been prevalent yet not impactful since the beginning of time a more deadly disease now… we are supposed to just trust what the federal agencies tell us….. yea ok how well has that worked out up to this point……

 

[guywhofishes]

hmmmm

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Roundup Ready Alfalfa. The best time to spray glyphosate is late evening when winds are low.

About the time deer come out for supper.

 

[BrockW]

hmmmm

I thought round up ready Alfalfa wasn’t released until 2005.

 

[Trip McNeely]

I thought round up ready Alfalfa wasn’t released until 2005.

Fast forward 20 years……anyone have the map of actual ag land in Wyoming? I know it’s not almost zero. Especially eastern Wyoming. Furthermore doesn’t anyone find it convenient this “study” is coming out just after one of the hardest winters to hit the big game populations in Wyoming ever….. some areas saying up to 70% mortality on pronghorn 2 years ago. Can’t imagine Muley numbers looked good either. I mean when a chunk of shit is rolling downhill it’s easy to pile on

 

[BrockW]

Fast forward 20 years……anyone have the map of actual ag land in Wyoming? I know it’s not almost zero. Especially eastern Wyoming. Furthermore doesn’t anyone find it convenient this “study” is coming out just after one of the hardest winters to hit the big game populations in Wyoming ever….. some areas saying up to 70% mortality on pronghorn 2 years ago. Can’t imagine Muley numbers looked good either. I mean when a chunk of shit is rolling downhill it’s easy to pile on

I’m saying it would be difficult for round up ready alfalfa to be the cause of CWD given it didn’t exist until 2005. Furthermore, if prion diseases were caused by glyphosate, how would one explain scrapie in sheep, which has been documented well before glyphosate was even thought of.

Besides, like the study I posted earlier illustrated, even the people who are against glyphosate can’t show that there is a causal relationship between prion misfolding and glyphosate.

 

[Trip McNeely]

I’m saying it would be difficult for round up ready alfalfa to be the cause of CWD given it didn’t exist until 2005. Furthermore, if prion diseases were caused by glyphosate, how would one explain scrapie in sheep, which has been documented well before glyphosate was even thought of.

Besides, like the study I published earlier illustrated, even the people who are against glyphosate can’t show that there is a causal relationship.

Maybe it isn’t the “cause” maybe it makes certain animals more susceptible. Triggers it. If glyphosate alfalfa wasn’t available until 05 maybe this is why the “surge” the last 10-15 years. Maybe this isn’t an actual “prion” disease. Maybe it’s a convenient term to divert what’s really happening….. after all it’s my understanding their is a lot of ambiguity about what and how this “prion” actually works. Conveniently make it hard to understand so no one questions it. Well guess what we are questioning it……I don’t think a lot of people are against actually studying cwd from an unbiased perspective. Most here are against the draconian measures and knee jerk shove it down your throat government manhandling of the situation….. you know like Covid……

 

[Trip McNeely]

In human glyphosate illness how does it work? I’m not familiar with the nuts and bolts only know it’s mainly central nervous system damage or diseases. Is this a prion situation or central nervous degeneration? Im starting to think the prion bit is more to throw off the scent.

 

[BrockW]

Maybe it isn’t the “cause” maybe it makes certain animals more susceptible. Triggers it. If glyphosate alfalfa wasn’t available until 05 maybe this is why the “surge” the last 10-15 years. Maybe this isn’t an actual “prion” disease. Maybe it’s a convenient term to divert what’s really happening….. after all it’s my understanding there is a lot of ambiguity about what and how this “prion” actually works. Conveniently make it hard to understand so no one questions it. Well guess what we are questioning it……I don’t think a lot of people are against actually studying cwd from an unbiased perspective. Most here are against the draconian measures and knee jerk shove it down your throat government manhandling of the situation….. you know like Covid……

No, I think things are pretty well established and there’s really very little doubt about it. But the confirmation bias and denialism is definitely strong within the “CWD is a conspiracy” crowd, that’s for sure. I will say, it is kind of funny to watch folks literally jump headfirst into every new theory that comes along. There’s a pattern emerging….

 

[Trip McNeely]

No, I think things are pretty well established and there’s really very little doubt about it. But the confirmation bias and denialism is definitely strong within the “CWD is a conspiracy” crowd, that’s for sure. I will say, it is kind of funny to watch folks literally jump headfirst into every new theory that comes along. There’s a pattern emerging….

Well that’s your opinion Brock, I think there is still plenty of doubt across the board and substantial alternative sconce that refutes claims. I do agree though…. It is actually funny to watch the “do as your told” crowd jump head first into believing everything the government tells them and not questioning anything. I’m going to guess you are due for a booster soon?

 

[BrockW]

Well that’s your opinion Brock, I think there is still plenty of doubt across the board and substantial alternative sconce that refutes claims. I do agree though…. It is actually funny to watch the “do as your told” crowd jump head first into believing everything the government tells them and not questioning anything. I’m going to guess you are due for a booster soon?

Oh I ask questions, but I tend to ask veterinarians who actually work with the disease on a daily basis. They provide facts, evidence, research backed up by other repeatable research, they put me in contact with other veterinarians who specialize in the pathology and epidemiology of wildlife population health.

They seldom speculate, and they never reference homemade YouTube videos with “mineral doctors” for sources of information.

 

[Trip McNeely]

Oh I ask questions, but I tend to ask veterinarians who actually work with the disease on a daily basis. They provide facts, evidence, research backed up by other repeatable research, they put me in contact with other veterinarians who specialize in the pathology and epidemiology of wildlife population health.

They seldom speculate, and they never reference homemade YouTube videos with “mineral doctors” for sources of information.

Well congratulations to you for how fucking awesome you are. Problem is there are large gaping holes in a lot of the “science” If you thought you’d come on this board and change any minds then I guess you are still out of luck. The only time I’ve made mistakes in this life is when I didn’t trust my gut. My gut tells me this entire situation is off. The science isn’t telling something and fellas like you have a motive to push agendas, usually something wrapped in grant money or tax dollars of some sort. Call me what you will I don’t really care but I won’t just believe what I’m told to believe because of “science” I’ve seen enough educated folks and “trusted science” be so far completely wrong as of late and through my life to not trust much of anything these days, especially something pushed down from the federal government. The only thing you’ve proven to me is you came here as someone’s mouth piece.

 

[BrockW]

Well congratulations to you for how fucking awesome you are. Problem is there are large gaping holes in a lot of the “science” If you thought you’d come on this board and change any minds then I guess you are still out of luck. The only time I’ve made mistakes in this life is when I didn’t trust my gut. My gut tells me this entire situation is off. The science isn’t telling something and fellas like you have a motive to push agendas, usually something wrapped in grant money or tax dollars of some sort. Call me what you will I don’t really care but I won’t just believe what I’m told to believe because of “science” I’ve seen enough educated folks and “trusted science” be so far completely wrong as of late and through my life to not trust much of anything these days, especially something pushed down from the federal government. The only thing you’ve proven to me is you came here as someone’s mouth piece.

No congratulations necessary. But thank you for the compliment!

I feel sorry for you though. Carrying all that cynicism around must make for a miserable life. Cheer up! There’s more to life than chasing made up conspiracy theories on the internet.

 

[FightingSioux]

This alfalfa and/or herbicide link is quite interesting.

Weren't the "patient zero" mulies captive deer? I assume that they were probably beingfed cubed alfalfa or some other food that contained alfalfa and/or herbicide.

We all know how deer will pretty much dedicate themselves to feeding in alfalfa fields if/when they get the opportunity.

And does describing Wyoming "in most areas as 0% ag" include alfalfa/hay land? I'm sure the ranches are into hay production - which certainly includes herbicide use.

Where this article is based at in WY is one of the few places with Ag fields and hay/alfalfa fields. Like the article says this area is such a higher concentration than anywhere else in WY but that doesn’t mean that CWD isn’t prevalent in many other areas in WY with essentially not much ag land.

 

[Trip McNeely]

No congratulations necessary. But thank you for the compliment!

I feel sorry for you though. Carrying all that cynicism around must make for a miserable life. Cheer up! There’s more to life than chasing made up conspiracy theories on the internet.

Lol this is where we depart any conversation moving forward. I don’t know you or need to explain anything to you about my views. I’ll stand where I stand and likewise feel sorry for fellas like you with your nose in the air and all pumped up on your big edumication. Guys like me must be just miserable not understanding all the big fancy things you smart people do and questioning things we are told to believe. In reality I do quite well thinking for myself. I may not be right all of the time but im more than ok living on my terms and with the ability to freely think. I actually feel sorry for motherfuckers like you that believe you’re the smartest twat in the room.

 

[Fester]

No congratulations necessary. But thank you for the compliment!

I feel sorry for you though. Carrying all that cynicism around must make for a miserable life. Cheer up! There’s more to life than chasing made up conspiracy theories on the internet.

Professional pan handlers are usually pretty cheerful people....spending everybody else's money.

What's really entertaining is they hold themselves to this high esteem of do gooding but 90% of "normal" people think they are low life bottom feeders.

 

[Trip McNeely]

Where this article is based at in WY is one of the few places with Ag fields and hay/alfalfa fields. Like the article says this area is such a higher concentration than anywhere else in WY but that doesn’t mean that CWD isn’t prevalent in many other areas in WY with essentially not much ag land.

That’s the point I believe some of us are eluding to. Is/has cwd always been here all along and the higher use of glyphosate basically “supercharges” the rate of incident and extremities of the disease. Meaning in lower chemical areas the rates are lower and possibly mortality rates lower or nonexistent? It’s pretty obvious that a lot more research (unbiased) needs to be done before we just accept complete slaughter or complete government overreach into this. How the fuck do you study mortality rates of a disease or the disease in general when you kill off your populations