One tag system

[BBQBluesMan]

Consider it done. You are welcome.

20.1-03-11.5. Purchase of bonus points awarded for lotteries.1. When an application for a license issued by a lottery that accrues bonus points ismade by an eligible resident with the intent to forfeit the opportunity to receive thatlicense, the director shall limit that applicant to the purchase of one bonus point for thatyear for that lottery. The applicant shall pay the same fee as the respective license.2. The director shall allocate fees collected under subsection 1 to the private lands opento sportsmen program.

Thanks yellow lab, I had heard it was in the works but didn't know it was official.

 

[Obi-Wan]

Here is the problem i see with those numbers. lets say you take away 10,000 bow tags and give them to rifle hunters. They can't just be a 1 for 1 exchange becasue rifle success is historically double what bow is. So if you eliminated half the bow hunters 10,000, you could only give 5,000 rifle tags for the same impact on the deer population.

Now considering bow hunters spend 10 days in the field for half the success of rifle hunters who spend 4 days. Please tell me how taking 10,000 tags away from guys who spend 10 days in the field to give them to 5,000 guys who spend 4 days in the field is somehow a net opportunity gain? Also please explain how a 5,000 net loss in tags is somehow going to add "10,000 to 12,000 more license in the hands of hunters" as you state above?? the 10,000 to 12,000 was G&F #s

The reality is anybody who thinks adding rifle tags is some how an opportunity gain is delusional. To add rifle tags you have to take away an even larger opportunity from somebody else. More tags for higher success rate weapon is ass backwards thinking if the goal is more opportunity for hunters in a state with limited deer numbers. Even with the same number of tags, but limited to one tag per person, increases the opportunity for more individual hunters in the field.

The more rifle tags you give, the fewer tags overall can be given to hunters. This can not be argued for even one second.

The argument could be reversed - at what point with the increase of bow tags ( which set an all time record in 2016 not sure of 17 ) do those tags have to be accounted for thus further reducing the number of rifle tags?

 

[WormWiggler]

maybe it should be that you apply for a deer tag, if successful you can bow hunt starting ~sept 1, rifle or bow hunt during rifle season, bow hunt or muzzy during muzzy season, and then bow hunt until end of bow season.. You take a deer at any point and your done for the year

 

[Obi-Wan]

Basically it forces the bow hunter to either give up rifle and muzzleloader or give up the option hunt statewide with the bow. That is a huge option for bow hunters to give up to be honest.

Yep, I already know that it forces the person drawn to make a decision if they want to use it for rifle or muzzleloader (user preference). This can be a plus or a minus depending on who you ask.

Plus it also means that if a person selected muzzleloader, they weren't able to bow hunt or rifle hunt.

Again, all I see are opportunities removed! and for what reason - a social reason!

But if you chose to buy bow tag and not use the lottery that tag would still be a state wide tag. The only thing it limited bow hunter to is 1 tag only.

 

[dust in the wind]

Obiwan - another look at the numbers.

Lets say that there are 12,000 tags added to pool.

Let's also assume gratis stays the same but we divy up the tags evenly between rifle and muzzleloader (to be fair you know).

You have now added 6000 tags to the lottery.

You have removed 12,000 people from the lottery

BUT we still have an increase of applicants like we have in the past years. So we add in another 4000 people to lottery (this is less than the increase from 2015 to 2016).

You only have a net gain of 2000 tags - now spread that out across all the units.

- - - Updated - - -

But if you chose to buy bow tag and not use the lottery that tag would still be a state wide tag. The only thing it limited bow hunter to is 1 tag only.

Again - opportunity removed for hunters!

 

[KJS - ND]

I believe muzzleloader tags are set by NDCC at 2% of the total rifle licenses issues - 1/2 bucks, 1/2 does.

 

[dust in the wind]

I believe muzzleloader tags are set by NDCC at 2% of the total rifle licenses issues - 1/2 bucks, 1/2 does.

I have no idea, never looked into it. Just trying to be fair across the board.

 

[Obi-Wan]

Obiwan - another look at the numbers.

Lets say that there are 12,000 tags added to pool.

Let's also assume gratis stays the same but we divy up the tags evenly between rifle and muzzleloader (to be fair you know).

You have now added 6000 tags to the lottery.

You have removed 12,000 people from the lottery

BUT we still have an increase of applicants like we have in the past years. So we add in another 4000 people to lottery (this is less than the increase from 2015 to 2016).

You only have a net gain of 2000 tags - now spread that out across all the units.

- - - Updated - - -

Again - opportunity removed for hunters!

The only opportunity you seem to care about it that of bow hunters.

- - - Updated - - -

2% of the whitetail gun tags

I believe muzzleloader tags are set by NDCC at 2% of the total rifle licenses issues - 1/2 bucks, 1/2 does.

 

[dust in the wind]

The only opportunity you seem to care about it that of bow hunters.

- - - Updated - - -

Not even close obi - it's all hunters whether you want to believe it or not.


You're taking away muzzleloader hunting from bow hunters (edit - removed rifle from this since rifle tag holders could use a muzzleloader).

You're taking away rifle and muzzleloader hunting for those that want to bow hunt statewide.

You're taking the statewide bow option from rifle hunters and muzzleloaders.

You're taking away bow hunting and rifle hunting from muzzleloaders

 

[Enslow]

IF they mess with my bowtag I am going rogue.

 

[WormWiggler]

how did they come up with all the different units, is it biology based, political, monkey with darts?

 

[PrairieGhost]

There is a simple solution to those who complain about archery and black powder hunting. Buy a bow and a smoke pole. If you don't your reduced opportunities are your own fault. Along that same thought line if you think gun hunters have it made buy a rifle.

 

[Allen]

It's loosely based on habitat/terrain by my casual observations.

 

[WormWiggler]

Just for the sake of conversation, what if the mule deer and whitetail deer were separate lotteries? You could apply for both, but Mule deer being a premium tag you would give up whitetail tag if you scored a mulie tag. Have point systems for each.

 

[Davey Crockett]

WW, For social reasons or biological ? Haha


I didn't understand what the ruckus was about the abuse of gratis tags until realizing the way it's set up. I was under the impression it was a land owner gratis tag that stayed in the possession of the land owner. Has anyone ever heard of a situation where land owner and renter clashed over rights to a gratis license ? Might be worthy of putting in your contract if you own farm land and rent it out. Might also explain some of the complaints of "double dipping" that people claimed was going on. The fine for intentionally using false information on hunting and fishing license should be higher than balls on a giraffe. Easy to prosecute with a high success rate and an easy way to keep people honest.


Licenses are available to residents and nonresidents who own, or residents who lease for agricultural purposes and actively farm or ranch, at least 150 acres of land located in an open hunting area. These licenses are valid only upon land described on the license. The license consists of the tag and the copy of the application returned to the landowner/lessee (both need to be in possession while hunting). The resident gratis or nonresident landowner license may be used during the deer bow, deer gun or muzzleloader seasons until the license is filled. Resident gratis and nonresident landowner licenses are issued only through the Department’s Bismarck office and are subtracted from the maximum number of deer gun licenses available (nonresident landowner from the 1 percent allocation), for each unit. A resident who holds a valid lottery license to hunt deer may hunt the same species and sex of deer, for which that person’s license is valid, on land in an adjoining unit for which that person would be eligible for a resident gratis deer license. A person, that person’s spouse, and their children who have a gratis deer license may hunt together on any qualifying land described on any of their licenses provided they hunt within the same unit in which their described land is located. No other licenses are required for resident gratis licensees. Applications received by the June 7, 2017 deadline will be issued an any-legal-deer license. Applications received after the deadline will be issued licenses based on availability after the initial lottery.

 

[WormWiggler]

Mr. Crockett, for better management of the species. I hate to suggest more taxes or fees but if each application had a few dollars that were withheld then have the 2 lottery system would bring it some more coin. For repairing rock damage and such.


Here is another hair brained idea. It was stated way early in the thread that the biggest issue is the G&F don't have a clue as to how many deer are in the state. So.. Have one of these tech savvy dudes build an app. The app would let people take pictures of deer with their phone, the app would send picture with date and GPS to G&F. Maybe reward the amateur photographers with an extra bonus point for every 1000 photos. Obvious the app would have to have some parameters so evil genius Lunkomatic would not take 7 million pictures of the doe in his backyard every Thursday.

 

[Kurtr]

How much do you guys charge to get a preference point? Its $5 for deer and goats and $10 for elk sheep and mt goat. seems a good way for a little extra income then that money is put to getting more land signed up in walk in

 

[PrairieGhost]

Here is another hair brained idea. It was stated way early in the thread that the biggest issue is the G&F don't have a clue as to how many deer are in the state. So.. Have one of these tech savvy dudes build an app. The app would let people take pictures of deer with their phone, the app would send picture with date and GPS to G&F. Maybe reward the amateur photographers with an extra bonus point for every 1000 photos. Obvious the app would have to have some parameters so evil genius Lunkomatic would not take 7 million pictures of the doe in his backyard every Thursday.

Built in huge bias ---- people. I can't think of a worse idea. I know you were just jerking out leg.

 

[KJS - ND]

How much do you guys charge to get a preference point? Its $5 for deer and goats and $10 for elk sheep and mt goat. seems a good way for a little extra income then that money is put to getting more land signed up in walk in

Looks like $30 for deer/muzzleloader (same as license fee) - assume same for goat (I've never applied). Fees collected look to go to the Private Land Open to Sportsmen (PLOTS) program.

Can't buy points for the big 3 (elk/moose/sheep) as you pay $5 to apply and then buy the tag once drawn - no bonus points for these 3.

 

[Mort]

How much do you guys charge to get a preference point? Its $5 for deer and goats and $10 for elk sheep and mt goat. seems a good way for a little extra income then that money is put to getting more land signed up in walk in

We don't "BUY" preference points in ND, they are 'earned' each time you are turned down on your FIRST choice on your app.

Example: Say I apply for mule buck in 4B my first choice, and whitetail second choice....if I don't get my FIRST choice, but still get my second choice, I get awarded 1 Preference point for the next time I apply for a deer tag. You have to apply every year in order not to lose those preference points. I have a friend that has at least 8 preference points, has been applying for tag in 4C and gets turned down we talked the other day and he said his points suddenly disappeared. Told him he better be getting on GF ass about that.

Was told say you do have 8 pts but forgot to apply this year...poof...they gone...thats not right in my book. If anyone on here has testament to this lets us know. I personally have never had my points disappear when I had them.

Like stated above, no preference points are 'earned' for the big 3.

I should add...if you don't 'DRAW" for any of your choices...first unit or second unit...you get your $30 back.
Or get the option to get in the SECOND lottery drawing, thats usually for any antlerless tags that are left.