One tag system

[dust in the wind]

on both sides

Yep, it's all the mean archery hunters fault isn't it.

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Maybe the ndgf should give out participation ribbons to those who were unsuccessful in the lottery or in filling a tag. Would that make anyone feel better?

The ribbon may be more appropriate in some cases.

 

[bowhunter88]

on both sides

Yeah it’s not like everyone has access to a statewide bow and arrow tag. Oh wait

 

[Obi-Wan]

You may want to look up the definition of both

Yep, it's all the mean archery hunters fault isn't it.

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The ribbon may be more appropriate in some cases.

 

[dust in the wind]

You may want to look up the definition of both

I know what the definition of BOTH is -- however, maybe I missed it but I have not seen one statement from an archery hunter wanting to take tags or opportunity away from another.

The majority of "reasons" for going to a one tag per person have been purely selfish. I.E. I want to get my rifle tag more often so I want the bow hunters out of the lottery.

The thing is, every year there have been more and more applying for rifle tags. Do you honestly believe that if 1/3 or even 1/2 of the bow hunters are removed from the lottery that it will drastically improve your odds? Guess what it, it won't! Then who are you going to bitch about. The youth, gratis, non residents?

 

[Buckmaster81]

First off I'm not a landowner or not enough to get a gratis but there is no quicker way to F up deer hunting then to piss off the landowners.

If they are eligible for a gratis give them a gratis buck if they want it just make sure that they are actually used on the land that they are issued for!!!

As far as a one tag system I say great until the population gets to a level to support more tags, but make the tags good for all open seasons until filled and shorten each season to limit harvest. Everyone gets equal opportunity, the shortened seasons will limit harvest and the quality of deer will increase.

I would propose bow season October 1-November 20 Muzzleloader- November 21-30 Rifle Dec 1-10th

This would limit the pressure during the rut when bucks can easily be poached by road hunters doing drive bys on posted land!!!

 

[dust in the wind]

As far as a one tag system I say great until the population gets to a level to support more tags, but make the tags good for all open seasons until filled

This was brought up

Muzzleloader cannot be grouped into it at this time. There would need to be legislative action taken to change it.
Archery would end up unit specific - the G&F claim that they can't manage rifle units if archery was left state wide.

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Something I've been wanting to ask - especially to Obi-Wan.

Since you are asking for bow hunters to be removed from the rifle tag lottery - what are you, as a rifle hunter, willing to give up regarding the rifle season?

Shorter season, move the season to a different date, or once drawn for a tag - no ability to apply in the lottery for a year or two before applying again?

 

[WhiskeyRebellion]

Oh I done got myself an unsigned negative rep. How will I ever sleep at night????

That ain't nothing, I got myself a bunch of them! LOL! Looks like i got the "goons" sicced on me for speaking my mind.

 

[Obi-Wan]

This was brought up

Muzzleloader cannot be grouped into it at this time. There would need to be legislative action taken to change it.
Archery would end up unit specific - the G&F claim that they can't manage rifle units if archery was left state wide.

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Something I've been wanting to ask - especially to Obi-Wan.

Since you are asking for bow hunters to be removed from the rifle tag lottery - what are you, as a rifle hunter, willing to give up regarding the rifle season? I am not asking for bow hunters to be removed from the rifle lottery I asking them to make a choice for one or the other. If you read the G&F proposal if drawn for a rifle tag it could be used during the bow season but would be limited to the unit and sex. If not drawn in the rifle lottery a bow tag could be purchased over the counter and only be used for bow hunting. If I recall they felt this would add 10,000 to 12,000 ( not sure of the # ) tags to the drawing increasing the odds for everyone in the lottery.

Shorter season, move the season to a different date, or once drawn for a tag - no ability to apply in the lottery for a year or two before applying again?

When you have nothing ( no tag ) it is pretty hard to give something up because 1/2 of nothing is still nothing but in response to your questions
I would be willing to give up bow hunting as I would not be allowed to do both. Yes I do bow hunt.
I would have no problem with a shorter season as it was only 9 1/2 days when I started hunting.
I think the early November season is fine the way it is. In ND you never know what the weather will be like in late Nov or Early Dec. we have had multiple times in the 37 yrs I have been hunting that the snow and cold made it near if not impossible to be out hunting and the further you move the season back the more likely the adverse weather will have an effect on the season.
I would have no problem if one draws a buck tag that they would not be eligible to apply for a buck tag the following year. When I started hunting mule deer in the badlands if you drew a muley tag you were not eligible to apply for a muley the following year.

You do realize that if more guys start bow hunting, as most are saying should happen, the G&F will be forced to change the bow tag system to keep harvest results within the parameters they need to control the population

 

[PrairieGhost]

If you look in the records of other states that have gone one tag if I remember right it had very little affect because about 70% of bow hunters stopped bow hunting and went rifle. Now in states where you can hunt with any weapon but only get one tag that didn't happen. However harvest remained the same.

I think a later season has a greater chance of stressing the deer and resulting in an even larger success rate. When there is snow on the ground the deer show up much better. Also, it's colder and if they get chased around they are burning a lot of energy. Bow hunters normally sit in a stand and don't chase deer around so late bow season has little affect. The more I think about it the more I realize it's hard to improve on the system we have. Our system is set up to give people the most opportunity possible, not as a trophy management system.

 

[NDbowman]

a later start to rifle season sounds good in theory. Weather like we had last year in December would make hunting very difficult with blocked roads and such. Not to mention the cold and snow made a lot of deer leave areas and yard up in their winter grounds. How many of those deer yards are on posted land? How many people would be on here bitching they can't get a deer as the weather has moved them onto posted land?

 

[JMF]

Oh I done got myself an unsigned negative rep. How will I ever sleep at night????

That ain't nothing, I got myself a bunch of them! LOL! Looks like i got the "goons" sicced on me for speaking my mind.

You didnt get neg rep for speaking your mind. You got negative rep because you're an idiot. You wrongly accused somebody you obviously don't know anything about.

 

[ShootnBlanks]

So does this 1 tag system also include youth tags? Btw, the youth season was the best thing ever in my opinion. I was able to introduce 3 of my 4 daughters that decided they wanted to hunt, into some memories they will never forget as well as hook them into being deer hunters for life!

 

[bowhunter88]

I have to agree i do like the system as is. Is it perfect? no, but it is fair and everyone has the same opportunities going in

 

[dust in the wind]

When you have nothing ( no tag ) it is pretty hard to give something up because 1/2 of nothing is still nothing but in response to your questions
I would be willing to give up bow hunting as I would not be allowed to do both. Yes I do bow hunt.
I would have no problem with a shorter season as it was only 9 1/2 days when I started hunting.
I think the early November season is fine the way it is. In ND you never know what the weather will be like in late Nov or Early Dec. we have had multiple times in the 37 yrs I have been hunting that the snow and cold made it near if not impossible to be out hunting and the further you move the season back the more likely the adverse weather will have an effect on the season.
I would have no problem if one draws a buck tag that they would not be eligible to apply for a buck tag the following year. When I started hunting mule deer in the badlands if you drew a muley tag you were not eligible to apply for a muley the following year.

You do realize that if more guys start bow hunting, as most are saying should happen, the G&F will be forced to change the bow tag system to keep harvest results within the parameters they need to control the population

You have more more than nothing... right now you have exactly the same opportunity as I do and every other hunter in the state. That is more than nothing. Just an FYI - I have drawn 2 rifle tags in the last 8 years. So I have gone without a rifle tag as well. No tag in the last 4 years so far. Not as long as some with the mule deer units but those are different circumstances.

With that said, Yes if drawn you could bow hunt in that unit for the sex on the tag. I know that. There are quite a few of us that do hunt in several parts of the state. I have a preferred rifle unit that is away from my home. It's where my dad lives (and no it isn't a mule deer unit). From the people I have talked to and posts made, there are many that fall into this category. That requires us to either a: bow hunt only statewide (removing us from the lottery) or B: apply for a rifle tag in our main bow hunting unit.

So, your numbers of 10,000 to 12,000 are roughly the 1/3 to 1/2 that I referred to above. So let's run with that.

We had roughly 54,000 tags available with roughly 105,000 people applying for tags.
That is 51.5% of applicants getting drawn.

Let's remove 15,000 people from the lottery (those that will want to bow hunt statewide).
That would bump it up to 60% of applicants getting drawn. That's almost a 10% uptick. Sounds great huh? Let's distribute that over the 39 rifle units. I know it wouldn't be evenly distributed but since we don't know how exactly it would be, let's divy it up evenly.

You have now just increased your odds in 1 specific unit by .25% -- Note the decimal - 1/4 of a percent.
Some units will be higher and some will probably be lower but this would be a good average.

Wow that's a hell of an increase in odds isn't it. So let me ask you again - do you think it will drastically increase your odds?

BTW - if my math is incorrect, please feel free to correct me. It was a quick calculation on my part.

And yes, I do realize that the more people bow hunting that changes will probably be required at some point. I am fully aware of that.

What I am getting at and have always stressed - there is a portion of the bowhunters that will have to make a choice and remove themselves from the lottery or give up the statewide option.

That's what lead me to ask what are the rifle hunters willing to give up.

If a rifle hunter is required to sit out a year or two - that alone would give you a substantial increase in odds for drawing tag. Do the math if 54,000 people have to sit out of the lottery one year.

There's been too much of one group pointing the blame at another group of hunters. Bow hunters, gratis, non resident and rifle only guys - we're all in this together and must work together if something needs to change. Making one group only give up one opportunity while the others don't have to change anything doesn't get us anywhere.

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I have to agree i do like the system as is. Is it perfect? no, but it is fair and everyone has the same opportunities going in

Exactly! Unfortunately there are some that don't see it as fair.

 

[KDM]

Great Post Bckhntr!! Unfortunately, the "One Taggers" aren't interested in numbers, facts, and science. They don't even accept that the G&F admitted a one tag system has no basis other than social and won't improve anything. They're just mad they didn't get a tag and the landowners, bow hunters, youth hunters, the current system, or a combination of these are to blame. They can't show how a one tag system will increase the number of tags (bow, rifle, or muzzy) one bit. In fact, they CAN'T show how a one tag system will increase hunter opportunity, help the deer population grow, increase hunter success, or show ANY POSITIVE IMPACTS over the current deer management system we have in place. I crunched the numbers a few ways as well and came up with basically the same conclusion. A one tag system is NOT better than what we currently have. Most of what they bring to the table is how to take opportunity from other hunters to satisfy them. Thanks for taking the time to post what you found!!

 

[Obi-Wan]

.....

You have more more than nothing... right now you have exactly the same opportunity as I do and every other hunter in the state. That is more than nothing. Just an FYI - I have drawn 2 rifle tags in the last 8 years. So I have gone without a rifle tag as well. No tag in the last 4 years so far. Not as long as some with the mule deer units but those are different circumstances.

With that said, Yes if drawn you could bow hunt in that unit for the sex on the tag. I know that. There are quite a few of us that do hunt in several parts of the state. I have a preferred rifle unit that is away from my home. It's where my dad lives (and no it isn't a mule deer unit). From the people I have talked to and posts made, there are many that fall into this category. That requires us to either a: bow hunt only statewide (removing us from the lottery) or B: apply for a rifle tag in our main bow hunting unit. you talk about hunting in a preferred rifle unit which you have stated as part of your argument but many have told gun hunters to apply in other units which you appear unwilling to do but have no problem with others having to make that choice

So, your numbers of 10,000 to 12,000 are roughly the 1/3 to 1/2 that I referred to above. So let's run with that.

We had roughly 54,000 tags available with roughly 105,000 people applying for tags. the way I read it the G&F would be adding the 10,000 to 12,000 tags to the lottery taking the lottery up to 64,000 to 66,000 tags, I could be wrong on. This but that's the way I understand it
That is 51.5% of applicants getting drawn.

Let's remove 15,000 people from the lottery (those that will want to bow hunt statewide).
That would bump it up to 60% of applicants getting drawn. That's almost a 10% actually 10,000 of 50,000 is an Increase of 20% uptick. Sounds great huh? Let's distribute that over the 39 rifle units. I know it wouldn't be evenly distributed but since we don't know how exactly it would be, let's divy it up even. 10,000 tags divided by 39 units would be an additional 256 guys per unit that did not receive a tag this year

You have now just increased your odds in 1 specific unit by .25% -- Note the decimal - 1/4 of a percent.
Some units will be higher and some will probably be lower but this would be a good average.

Wow that's a hell of an increase in odds isn't it. So let me ask you again - do you think it will drastically increase your odds?

BTW - if my math is incorrect, please feel free to correct me. It was a quick calculation on my part.

And yes, I do realize that the more people bow hunting that changes will probably be required at some point. I am fully aware of that.

What I am getting at and have always stressed - there is a portion of the bowhunters that will have to make a choice and remove themselves from the lottery or give up the statewide option.

That's what lead me to ask what are the rifle hunters willing to give up.

If a rifle hunter is required to sit out a year or two - that alone would give you a substantial increase in odds for drawing tag. Do the math if 54,000 people have to sit out of the lottery one year. you seem to want to put more limits on gun hunters but are unwilling to limit bow hunters

There's been too much of one group pointing the blame at another group of hunters. Bow hunters, gratis, non resident and rifle only guys - we're all in this together and must work together if something needs to change. Making one group only give up one opportunity while the others don't have to change anything doesn't get us anywhere.
the G&F proposal was set up to impact bow hunters the least by allowing them to purchase a tag after the drawing or use their rifle tag during bow season
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Exactly! Unfortunately there are some that don't see it as fair.

 

[Davey Crockett]

Great Post Bckhntr!! Unfortunately, the "One Taggers" aren't interested in numbers, facts, and science. They don't even accept that the G&F admitted a one tag system has no basis other than social and won't improve anything. They're just mad they didn't get a tag and the landowners, bow hunters, youth hunters, the current system, or a combination of these are to blame. They can't show how a one tag system will increase the number of tags (bow, rifle, or muzzy) one bit. In fact, they CAN'T show how a one tag system will increase hunter opportunity, help the deer population grow, increase hunter success, or show ANY POSITIVE IMPACTS over the current deer management system we have in place. I crunched the numbers a few ways as well and came up with basically the same conclusion. A one tag system is NOT better than what we currently have. Most of what they bring to the table is how to take opportunity from other hunters to satisfy them. Thanks for taking the time to post what you found!!

This is the part I just cant seem to get through my thick skull or yours (one of us is wrong and if it's me I'll admit it) and the only reason I thought this topic was worth discussion. Rounding off the numbers in this poll to make an easy example to work with, lets say 100 people wanted to shoot a deer and 50 of them got a license , 20 people got two license and 20 got none . So 70 out of 100 get to shoot a deer Now you do the math and tell me how many people could go hunting with a 1 tag system because I keep coming up with the same number and everyone is telling me I am wrong.

 

[WhiskeyRebellion]

You didnt get neg rep for speaking your mind. You got negative rep because you're an idiot. You wrongly accused somebody you obviously don't know anything about.

That is the best you can do? SMH... I don't think I wrongly accused anyone. If you can't see how a system that gives half the available tags away before anyone gets a chance at a draw is hurting the future of hunting, you are part of the problem too.

 

[bucksnbears]

This thread is an eye-opener.!!
Thinking back to ALL THE SEASONS I was a balls to walls deer Hunter, get it done no matter what to what I do now. I'm still balls to the walls but find WAY more time to relax and help/ teach others what I've learned. And I sleep well at night.

 

[WhiskeyRebellion]

All I know is that there is doubt capping gratis tags at 10% would yield a nice increase in draw odds. Which in turn might keep more youth and novice hunters in the field. Which is what we all should want if we want to keep hunting in the future.