Baiting Ban

[SupressYourself]

Real science has been replaced with "we gotta do sumpin for good feelz".

 

[AR-15]

Complete joke

 

[TFX 186]

I wish Dr Fauchi and the G&F would ban the deer from eating my spruce trees in my yard. At least one deer to a tree would help. Seriously, this is the earliest in 30+ years that the deer have been in my yard eating my trees. I wont have a branch with needles on it on any tree within 6' off the ground. I feel bad for the animals!

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Science is not corrupt. crooked, or stupid, people are. So no one misunderstands I woukd agree with Fritz post above. However not all the time because he cherry picks as the post mentions, but then nearly everyone cherry picks to support their agenda, and that's the problem. Science and data are good things until a biased statistician gets their hands on it.

PrairieGhost, every once in awhile you speak some truth.

In 2017 the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies tasked a committee writing a white paper about CWD. Resolutions, intended goals, and guidance towards getting federal grant money. Thirty heavily biased scientists and Doctors of Veterinarian Medicine statisticians gravitated towards the committee. These fellow travelers have been busy bees for years.

https://www.fishwildlife.org/applic...3/AFWA_Technical_Report_on_CWD_BMPs_FINAL.pdf

AFWA Technical Report on Best Management Practices for Prevention, Surveillance, and Management of Chronic Wasting Disease Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies,

Jen Ballard, Arkansas Game and Fish Commission,
Lou Cornicelli, Minnesota Division of Fish and Wildlife
Melinda Cosgrove, Michigan Department of Natural Resources
Mark Cunningham, Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
Bob Dittmar, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Mark Drew, Idaho Department of Fish and Game
Hank Edwards, Wyoming Game and Fish Department
Heather Fenton, Northwest Territories Department of Environment and Natural Resources
John Fischer, Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study
Colin Gillin, Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife
Daniel Grove, North Dakota Game and Fish Department
Anne Justice-Allen, Arizona Game and Fish Department
Megan Kirchgessner, Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries
Lane Kisonak, Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies
Wayne Laroche, Pennsylvania Game Commission
Mitch Lockwood, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Lindsey Long, Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
Jonathan Mawdsley, Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies
Brandon Munk, California Department of Fish and Wildlife
Daniel O'Brien, Michigan Department of Natural Resources
Maria Palamar, North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission
Margo Pybus, Alberta Fish and Wildlife
Jennifer Ramsey, Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife & Parks
Annette Roug, Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
Mark Gregory Ruder, Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study
Krysten Schuler, Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine
Kelly Straka, Michigan Department of Natural Resources
Margaret Wild, National Park Service
Peregrine Wolff, Nevada Department of Wildlife
Mary Wood, Wyoming Game and Fish Department

The ND Game and Fish Department has been holding up this 111 page document as the science. Yes, 30 statisticians put their names on it. They took it from State to State and had the resolutions amended and language subtracted until it became a wish list. There is no mention of food plots congregating deer because they simply (cherry picked) wished it out.

The Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies BMP's document has now been monetized by the CWD Research and Management Act or $35 million per year.

When the grant writing begins for agencies to get that money from USDA, they have a guidance document for USDA to adopt. Fox guarding the hen house.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Right now am watching Kevin McCarthy lose his 7th bid vote for speaker of the House. Media commentators are saying one of the things the Republican conservative hold outs are angry about is the passage of the Omnibus Spending Package $1.7 Trillion passed December 23rd 2022.

The CWD Research and Management Act was dropped into that hopper because it couldn't pass on its own merit. No discussion. -You have to pass it to find out what's in it.

 

[duckman1302]

I once had a professor tell me something that has stuck with me. Experiments never PROVE anything, they simply fail to disprove.

 

[PrairieGhost]

PrairieGhost, every once in awhile you speak some truth.

Fritz I agree with you more than you will ever know. I just learned to say nothing in some situations, or just hint. Tried to be informative once, but GST couldn't keep his big mouth shut.

 

[wjschmaltz]

Last I contacted Dan he was down in Tennesse. That was five years ago. I've talked to him at length on the subject. Probably thousands of hours talking wildlife disease in general with Dan. I never had even somewhat of an impression that his take on CWD management or wildlife disease in general wasn't in the best interest of the wildlife and people consuming them. Largely in protection of the people consuming them. I do not speak for him, just my impression after extensive conversations on the subject. His job and everyone's job underneath him were already funded with or without federal CWD money. Federal CWD money just created more work and more headaches.

When it comes to regulation and forming regulation, a good rule of thumb is "does it pass the red face test?" Meaning when the lawyers/public come knocking (and they will), will you be able to say you protected the best interest of the people of the state without any question? When the first person is officially infected with CWD from transmission from another animal the first things the lawyers will do is go to the wildlife managers and ask them if there was anything they could've done to prevent it. The answer is clearly no. However, they will need to show that they did everything within their power to try. Maybe that is the message the NDGF needs to portray. Maybe that's not their message anymore, I don't really follow the issue close enough to know. It would be wise of them to acknowledge that they cannot control deer congregation in fields, hayyards, feedlots, etc. while also acknowledging that it's their responsibility to do what is within their regulatory authority to slow down the spread of the disease. The only thing within their control is stopping deer congregation by preventing hunting over bait. I'm not here to debate if that's necessary or whatever, that's just the way I see it. And it honestly makes complete sense from a legal standpoint.

My personal take is that it will spread and live on the landscape no matter what is done in regard to baiting. But I can understand the government trying to cover their liability in the world we live in. I have no dog in the fight and stopped following along. I personally don't care and honestly find the arguments (or so they're called) from the pro baiting side off putting and not worth reading. They're rarely in the form of an argument as much as in the form of rhetoric or anger-filled rants. And honestly, I've found hunting deer on their way to food instead of on food is exponentially more productive. I'm fairly confident we will see zoonotic transmission of CWD in my lifetime, if we haven't already. We better all hope CWD isn't widespread at the time because drastic actions will be made to protect human health and the only deer you'll see when it's all done will be in a zoo. Just food for thought.

 

[Freedom]

Last I contacted Dan he was down in Tennesse. That was five years ago. I've talked to him at length on the subject. Probably thousands of hours talking wildlife disease in general with Dan. I never had even somewhat of an impression that his take on CWD management or wildlife disease in general wasn't in the best interest of the wildlife and people consuming them. Largely in protection of the people consuming them. I do not speak for him, just my impression after extensive conversations on the subject. His job and everyone's job underneath him were already funded with or without federal CWD money. Federal CWD money just created more work and more headaches.

When it comes to regulation and forming regulation, a good rule of thumb is "does it pass the red face test?" Meaning when the lawyers/public come knocking (and they will), will you be able to say you protected the best interest of the people of the state without any question? When the first person is officially infected with CWD from transmission from another animal the first things the lawyers will do is go to the wildlife managers and ask them if there was anything they could've done to prevent it. The answer is clearly no. However, they will need to show that they did everything within their power to try. Maybe that is the message the NDGF needs to portray. Maybe that's not their message anymore, I don't really follow the issue close enough to know. It would be wise of them to acknowledge that they cannot control deer congregation in fields, hayyards, feedlots, etc. while also acknowledging that it's their responsibility to do what is within their regulatory authority to slow down the spread of the disease. The only thing within their control is stopping deer congregation by preventing hunting over bait. I'm not here to debate if that's necessary or whatever, that's just the way I see it. And it honestly makes complete sense from a legal standpoint.

My personal take is that it will spread and live on the landscape no matter what is done in regard to baiting. But I can understand the government trying to cover their liability in the world we live in. I have no dog in the fight and stopped following along. I personally don't care and honestly find the arguments (or so they're called) from the pro baiting side off putting and not worth reading. They're rarely in the form of an argument as much as in the form of rhetoric or anger-filled rants. And honestly, I've found hunting deer on their way to food instead of on food is exponentially more productive. I'm fairly confident we will see zoonotic transmission of CWD in my lifetime, if we haven't already. We better all hope CWD isn't widespread at the time because drastic actions will be made to protect human health and the only deer you'll see when it's all done will be in a zoo. Just food for thought.

Holy shit you made everyone read a lot to say that you support them doing something just for the sake of doing something regardless of if it works

 

[guywhofishes]

And honestly, I've found hunting deer on their way to food instead of on food is exponentially more productive.

That's easy enough... but you have to place food to get them coming and going to food.
At that point you're baiting for the purpose of hunting... not?

And they're still congregating at the food. So they really haven't accomplished the POSSIBLE reduction in the transmission they worship as a POSSIBLE solution.

It's NDGF's inconsistency of the concept that drives me bonkers.
~ Grandma feeding them - OK
~ Hunters feeding them and hunting them on food plots - OK
~ NDGF feeding them and allowing hunters to hunt them on food plots - OK
~ Hunters feeding them with bait piles but not hunting them directly on the bait piles - OK?
~ Hunters feeding them and hunting them on bait piles - not OK because transmission

Help....

 

[wjschmaltz]

That's easy enough... but you have to place food to get them coming and going to food.
At that point you're baiting for the purpose of hunting... not?

And they're still congregating at the food. So they really haven't accomplished the POSSIBLE reduction in the transmission they worship as a POSSIBLE solution.

It's NDGF's inconsistency of the concept that drives me bonkers.
~ Grandma feeding them - OK
~ Hunters feeding them and hunting them on food plots - OK
~ NDGF feeding them and allowing hunters to hunt them on food plots - OK
~ Hunters feeding them with bait piles but not hunting directly them on bait piles - OK?
~ Hunters feeding them and hunting them on bait piles - not OK because transmission

Help....

No, believe it or not, wildlife still eats if there isn't a corn pile. Even if there is a corn pile at the end of the rainbow, I would and do hunt the trail and not the pile. Animal behavior is the single most important tool for a hunter and it's the last thing talked about. I don't hunt sheep or moose or anything where it eats, why would I show up late to the party when I know the road to the party?

Again, I did help if you read what I typed.

Hunters feeding them = the one thing that the fish and game can control and it's their obligation to control what they can. The Tragedy of Commons is the cornerstone of wildlife management and quite honestly all natural resource management as our world continues to expand. At its most simple form, that's what is on display in this baiting ban. Period.

I couldn't have been more clear. I'm sorry, but I understand the fact they are filling their role in their mission statement. That's all I'm saying here. Even if I don't agree with it. Never did I say it was OK or not OK. This whole thread is a vacuum of thoughts, I'm just trying to provide a little perspective outside of that vacuum.

Holy shit you made everyone read a lot to say that you support them doing something just for the sake of doing something regardless of if it works

Where did I say that? I don't know how I can be more clear in the fact I simply understand the rationale and don't necessarily agree or have a strong opinion. I was also clear in the fact that comments like this are why there will never be a legitimate conversation on the matter of baiting and why hunters always lose in the end. They can't get out of their own way to earn a reputable spot at the table.

 

[KDM]

Lets all not forget that Wyoming, Wisconsin, and Minnesota ALL have had baiting bans for decades in the case of Wyoming which have done NOTHING to slow the spread of CWD in those states. Lets also not forget that ALL THREE of these states still have BOOMING white tail populations in spite of CWD and pump out thousands of trophies every year, as well as the elk populations in Wyoming. So tell me again why tax dollars are being spent to curb the spread of something that doesn't infect people and doesn't seem to reduce populations of deer or elk to any significant degree?? Could it be a power kick designed to needlessly create fear and panic in order to implement more restrictive control measures on people while simultaneously doing nothing with those same funds to benefit the wildlife populations?? Nah. Couldn't be. Carry On!!

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Last I contacted Dan he was down in Tennesse. That was five years ago. I've talked to him at length on the subject. Probably thousands of hours talking wildlife disease in general with Dan. I never had even somewhat of an impression that his take on CWD management or wildlife disease in general wasn't in the best interest of the wildlife and people consuming them.

A few years back went to one of those meetings. I asked how long from the time G&F collected heads, removed samples, sent them to the University of Michigan, if a suspect was found, forwarded that to NVSL in Ames Iowa to confirm, who contact NDGF and then Game and Fish notifies hunter he has a CWD positive in the deep freeze, what kind of time frame are we looking at?

Dan Grove replied three months, by which time some of the deer has been consumed. Most hunters choose to keep eating the rest, but not to worry, CWD will not jump the species barrier.

A federal lady in front of Dan was shaking her head in disagreement. The moderator asked if I had any other questions? Nope.

 

[PrairieGhost]

CWD will not jump the species barrier.

We know nearly nothing about CWD, but someone knows this? Over the centuries many people have been made fools by bold statements.

 

[ndlongshot]

CWD will not jump the species barrier.

I agree with PG. Bold statement. I hope you are right.

But "CWD may, might, hasn't, yet"....are all interesting scenarios to consider. Similar diseases in the same prion family HAVE jumped the species barrier. Whats to say CWD won't and shouldnt we ponder the consequences of that event?
I hope it never comes to be, but lets be truthful about what it would look like so we can plan accordingly and adjust when necessary. Like life has always been...

Or ya know....ignorance is bliss. Or something.

One last thought. I think these restrictions are ridiculous and in no way will stop CWD. Its here for good and likely always has been in some form. Learn to live with it. But I sure as hell want to understand how its going to effect my health, wildlife populations, and the world moving forward so I can plan accordingly. I tend to agree with KDM. The government solution is likely worse than the disease for wildlife populations.

 

[TFX 186]

Lets all not forget that Wyoming, Wisconsin, and Minnesota ALL have had baiting bans for decades in the case of Wyoming which have done NOTHING to slow the spread of CWD in those states. Lets also not forget that ALL THREE of these states still have BOOMING white tail populations in spite of CWD and pump out thousands of trophies every year, as well as the elk populations in Wyoming. So tell me again why tax dollars are being spent to curb the spread of something that doesn't infect people and doesn't seem to reduce populations of deer or elk to any significant degree?? Could it be a power kick designed to needlessly create fear and panic in order to implement more restrictive control measures on people while simultaneously doing nothing with those same funds to benefit the wildlife populations?? Nah. Couldn't be. Carry On!!

Spot on KDM. I've hinted at this very thing also. Reminds me of the Covid shit. G&F has had it out for baiting from the start and any excuse to ban it will fit their narrative.
Great Post!!
Fish On!

 

[espringers]

i just want to know what zombie research lab cwd was created in so i can blame joe biden

 

[Twitch]

i just want to know what zombie research lab cwd was created in so i can blame joe biden

Biden got into office in ‘73 and the first wild case was in ‘81….definitely plausible

 

[guywhofishes]

LOL - some people really worry about CWD interspecies jump

some of those same people who sign up for boosters that we know rewires your immune response system at the genetic level - permanently

 

[KDM]

Anybody worrying about a species jump from CWD had BETTER NOT EAT ANY BEEF!!!! Mad cow disease is also caused by a prion, so toss them T bones, all that burger in the trash, and you better swear off any beef fast food. We wouldn't want you to chance consuming a prion and becoming a liberal now would we.